@toomanyteens - then it shouldn’t be a problem. 3000 or 4000 isn’t that noticeable of a difference in a student’s day-to-day experience.
D thought she wanted a mid-large size school. Ended up at a much smaller college and it turned out to be a fantastic experience, and definitely the right decision. Professors know who you are, welcome you in when you knock on their door, passionate alumni …
I was worried that as a science major she wouldn’t have all those “necessary” research opportunities they talk up at the larger schools, but instead she had direct professor mentoring and research opportunities which turned out even better than just being another research assistant in the lab. Plus, she could still play her sport and not worry about things like lab conflicts at a smaller school, because the coaches adjust to the athlete’s academic schedule more easily than at larger institutions.
I transferred from 50,000 student Ohio State to 3000 student University of Alaska, Fairbanks. Much preferred the smaller school. I actually knew my professors and didn’t have to deal with teaching assistants who couldn’t speak English. Class sizes at Ohio State were in the hundreds, while the largest class I had at UAF was about 60.
It is actually hard for me to imagine anyone who does better at a big school. Sure lots of people do well or even great at big schools, but I have a hard time believing those kids wouldn’t also do just as well or better at a small school. I think the location (urban, rural, etc) is likely more important.
I had my D17 read this when she was worried about school size: http://blog.prepscholar.com/should-i-go-to-a-big-or-small-college
There are a lot of people who would feel suffocated at a small school and do great at a big school with all the choices, all the activities. My sister transferred from an LAC to big flagship and she felt there were so many more opportunities. I started at a smaller school (although still 10,000) and transferred to a bigger one. Much happier. Could we have succeeded at small LACs? Sure, but not better for us.
OP’s child is also looking for fit on a team. It’s not likely she’s going to have the option to Go Big (flagship size) and still get on the team. She’s looking for the sweet spot with a school of the right size and a team of the right level.
Where did OP said her/his daughter could likely only make her sports team at a not-large school? I didn’t read OP’s responses that way – but in any case, I agree with you twoinanddone that the fit is likely better at a smaller school if that is a major consideration.
My own D started out the same way as OP’s daughter, wanting that “sweet spot” medium-sized populated school. She just didn’t find very many out there at all, much less with the right combination of academics, sports, social activities, campus feel, etc. So given the choice, in that scenario (because my D did want to play on a team, for a school with highly rated academics), the smaller school made sense.
And, as always, it’s all about fit.
@stlarenas my older D originally wanted a big school and ended up choosing a much smaller one ( 5000). I always envisioned my younger D at a very small school, and we visited several amazing ones. She found them too small for her and made her realize that she wanted a larger university. She loves it and is doing very well.
It is all about personal choice. I think D2’s school is too big at 1600. D1’s school is about 1200. D1 never had issues getting any classes she needed for her majors and it worked for her as well.
My undergrad was about 1,000 but by the time you factor in things like semesters abroad/away there were less than 900 people on campus at a time and it really was close to perfect.
Another plug for larger, rather than smaller, schools.
As they say, many small LACs are schools kids grow out of; one of the reasons study abroad is so popular with those smaller schools is that by junior year the kids simply get bored. “Incestuous” is a word I heard a lot from a young woman who liked her LAC for academic reasons, but found it actually socially stifling.
A good friend of mine is a professor at a selective LAC in the northeast. He says he sees much more hard-core partying there than at either his large undergrad university, or the large private he taught at earlier. This is echoed by a professor who taught at another well-known LAC, where there was also a (well hidden) drug problem. Two students fatally overdosed on heroin during a 3-month stint my husband spent at that school. There was simply not a whole lot to do at these small schools which are also often located in isolated/isolating areas.
My professor friend would have gotten free tuition for his two daughters at his LAC. He was relived they showed no interest in it… choosing instead his alma mater: the 35,000+ UC Berkeley. “They’ll grow into it,” he said, and he was absolutely right.
You certainly are free to state your position that some students will get bored faster at small school. But the idea that there is a heroin problem at school because they are small is an example of “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” rationalization. It is in my opinion a dangerously irresponsible anecdote.
Also, drugs are everywhere, large and small, rich and poor, urban and rural. The corollary of your anecdote is that those things are better avoided at large schools, and we know that is not true.
(FYI I am a big school grad myself and it was the right one for me.)
There is no one-size-fits-all. I can say that, in my situation many years ago, I believe I received mentoring and assistance at a smaller school that I might have been afraid to seek out at a larger school. YMMV. H teaches at a smaller U, and he loves the level of interaction he has with undergrads. D and S both chose schools similar in size to where H teaches - it’s basically imprinted on them what college life should look like. For D it has been a fantastic experience. Waiting to see how it works once S starts school, but I truly believe he made the right choice.
Maybe some of the kids at H’s U feel stifled and short-changed, but the students I know seem convinced they made the right choice for them. D’s boyfriend believes large State U was the right choice for him. Many, many faculty at H’s school make the choice to have them attend the school they teach at, even though the kids could get free tuition at a number of other schools.
If it’s the right fit, don’t question, just go for it.
My oldest was deciding between two schools both with approximately 6500 undergrads, but one had far more professors in his major than the other. Younger son also picked a medium size research university of about 5000. He had only a handful of classes with more than 25 or so students.
As for me I really liked having a mix of lectures and small classes. I was in a tiny major where all my professors knew me. I was required to have a senior thesis and worked one on one with a pair of professors. (Well two on one really.)
Pretty sure that heroin is NOT a common issue at LACs. Certainly not the LACs my kids attended.
Heroin is a big issue in the northeast generally. There have been several stories on it on the news and on shows like 20/20 and Dateline. I can see how it might infiltrate a small college in one city and not touch another just a short distance away.
Heroin an issue at LACs as well as big schools.
Many of the students switch to heroin after they become addicted to prescription pain killers. It’s apparently a similar high. Many of them are athletes. It’s enough of a serious problem that several top northeastern LACs have joined forces, sharing resources and approaches, in fighting it. One went so far as expelling 6 seniors – who were months from graduation, but no diploma for them! – after they were busted doing heroin in on-campus housing. At the time, the police chief said it was the first time he saw a major $60,000+/year school actually take a real stand. He was quoted as saying that most of these exclusive privates spend a great deal of money and time hiding the fact of drugs, and ODs on campus. Luckily more schools are now following suit, just as Wesleyan did recently. More and more public health officials are trying to work with school officials, because they see heroin use even among private school kids are a major public health risk. They decry the lack of statistics and studies on the subject that could help them deal with the issue.
Here’s an article – from 2014 – on heroin on campus:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/04/28/colleges-confront-increase-use-heroin-students
Here’s a deadly drug incident at Trinity College that even made the NYT – 16 years ago! Yes, heroin was involved.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/21/nyregion/student-drug-death-arrests-and-illnesses-shock-college-in-hartford.html
That said, of course @Postmodern is correct; and I agree that the small vs. big choice is very, very individual. I just made a plug for big schools to offer a different perspective, since the small faction was posting so much
Perhaps it is other characteristics of the schools, rather than being small LACs, that are more strongly associated with greater drinking or other recreational drug use.
http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/media/finalpanel1.pdf (page 23-25) describes characteristics of schools associated with more or less drinking. Page vii and 21-22 list some characteristics of students associated with more or less drinking.
Interesting. The study @ucbalumnus includes these environmental factors (page 24)
School size. Students at smaller schools consume greater amounts of alcohol on an average weekly
basis than students at larger schools (Presley et al., 1993, 1995, 1996a, 1996b). This may be partially
explained by the fact that larger schools are likely to have more commuter students who tend to drink
less (see above). Because school characteristics such as size are correlated so closely with other
institutional characteristics, such as public versus private sponsorship, religious affiliation, and
location (rural, small town, suburban, urban), it is difficult to disentangle the influences of these
characteristics.
Location. Alcohol consumption rates in colleges vary by region. It has been consistently shown that
students at schools in the Northeast section of the United States, followed by those in the North
Central region, consume more alcohol and have higher binge drinking rates than students at colleges
in other sections of the country (Presley et al., 1993, 1995, 1996a, 1996b; Wechsler et al., 1994, 1998,
2000b). These regions also have the highest rates of occasional heavy use and annual and 30-day use
among young adults generally (Johnston et al., 2001a, 2001b). There is also anecdotal evidence that
students on rural campuses drink more than students on urban or suburban campuses. The CAS data
show that binge rates of rural/small town campuses are consistently higher than those of
urban/suburban campuses (for example, 49 percent versus 42 percent in 1999), although the
differences are not statistically significant.
– so as far as drinking, there is a greater prevalence of it in smaller, rural schools.
I would take a very serious look at this. This is a much bigger issue than I originally realized. I’ve been looking at the Computer Science and Math departments at LACs recently, and many of them lack certain courses that I would advise taking if choosing a Math or CS degree.
I’ve been looking on behalf of a kid who doesn’t anticipate grad school, so keep that in mind. Grad school probably requires breadth rather than depth. I don’t know anything about grad school admissions, so I won’t comment on that.
What I’ve been looking at is whether a student could take a couple of courses in an area of interest once they complete the lower division and upper division cores in their major. For example, is it possible for a Math major to take 2 - 3 electives in Statistics and Data Analytics, or Actuarial Science? Is it possible for a CS student to take electives in Internet Programming or Data Mining/Machine Learning.
I was surprised by the number of schools that don’t offer these types of courses. They might offer some, but at many schools the choices are very limited. Some of the more STEMy LACs have more options, but not as many as a student would have at a research university.
I’m pretty sure the options can be just as limited in more typical Liberal Arts subjects. I would just look very carefully at the specific departments, like @ucbalumnus said.
Given all of that, I still think the personal attention is worth it if the student can figure out a way to get all of the courses they want, either through a consortium or by taking courses at another school during summers.
My oldest daughter just completed a double major at the University of Richmond in VA, 3200 undergrads, in Biochemistry and CS. She found the quality of classes and professors in both subject areas to be excellent, and loved her time at UR, but completing both majors in 4 years definitely did take some planning, since some of the CS courses were offered only on a rotating basis. For her, the CS major was intended as a complement to her Biochem degree, as she is also interested in computational biology. She was able to apply her computer modeling skills to her Biochem coursework and her lab research.
UR really helps its undergrad students to participate in research, if they wish, across all subject areas, not just in science, pledging that every student can receive a $4K stipend for funding. They host an annual research symposium, and students also regularly attend academic conferences, with funding supplied for that as well.
Smaller Unis will have fewer majors and offer fewer courses, so it is definitely good advice to review the course listings and major requirements to make sure they are appealing and broad enough. My UR graduate and my current UR student have had such positive experiences and opportunities, and the course selection has been fine for them, that it was well worth the trade off for them.
I attended a large state Uni for an engineering program, and it was a great fit for me, but I have been blown away by the education that my daughters have received at a smaller school. The level of mentoring that they have received from their advisors, professors, and the head researcher of their lab has been truly exceptional. When we have attended the research symposiums and other functions, we have been able to meet and chat with many of their professors, which has been great, too.
My son attended a school a bit over half the size of the OP’s target school. I actually suggested he apply there. He is ridiculously bright and severely dyslexic and I thought he would benefit from small classes where the professors would quickly see how bright he was rather than waiting for mid-terms and finals (which might not be the best way to show his intellectual strengths). Although he did really well on tests, he got both a lot of faculty attention and a fair degree of flexibility to accommodate his dyslexia and to pursue his interests (faculty agreed to supervise quite a number of independent study courses). He never would have received the faculty time/attention at larger schools. Academically, he left with a 3.96 GPA, summa cum laude, several prizes for outstanding academic performance and started a company while he was in college. He made great friends there – he’s currently visiting from grad school on the West Coast to be groomsman in a college friend’s wedding (actually both bride and groom are friends) and two of his roommates are staying with us for a couple of days. He would tell you he loved the school and was glad he went there.
@ucbalumnus’s advice about availability of courses in likely majors is well-taken. If my son had done a single major, he might have run out of courses in his major. He probably would have done independent studies. However, he was a triple major (math/econ/behavioral econ) and so took enough courses to major in math and in econ (plus some psych courses) but couldn’t go as deeply in either field as he might have and hence did not run out of courses.
There was a fair degree of drinking at his school. He was not a big drinker and had some sub-free friends in his core group. I doubt the drinking was worse than at my Ivy alma mater.
My daughter began at a large university (17K students). She appeared to like it socially but didn’t really like the large lecture/test/mid-term/final format. Her plan was to major in biology and she was taking chemistry, math, biology, developmental psychology and a language. I’ll skip a long story and tell you that she was admitted to another school in a five year BSN/MSN program. The school has about 1700 students, I think, with nursing being one of the larger majors. She didn’t love all of her professors but really learned a phenomenal amount and again, due to small class sizes, knew her professors. She did clinical work and preceptorships in major teaching hospitals as well as other health care facilities and seems to have done very well as doctors she met at these hospitals would come up to her and say, “You are so bright. You should go to medical school.” (She chose the nurse practitioner router because she didn’t like the stress and competitiveness of pre-med/med school and also because she wants a career that makes it easier to have a family). She received her MSN and passed her Nurse Practitioner boards just before she turned 23. I suspect she would tell you that she didn’t love the school but a) got a great education; b) was happy that she got such great training (sometimes despite the school) because she was in a city with terrific teaching hospitals; and c) made a number of deep friends.
She hated living in the dorm at her second school and moved off-campus after the first semester. She socialized primarily with kids in her programs – but she also worked so hard (she always had a job on top of school) – that she had a more limited social life than I might have liked. She and her friends did drink when they finished the semester or passed key exams, but again I don’t think it was out of the ordinary.