<p>welcome Hollyanne and ctmom! </p>
<p>I knew there were more of you out there!</p>
<p>no shame, no blame, it is what it is … so we are nervous. hugs!</p>
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<p>When I saw the number of pages of replies on this new thread, I figured I should visit. I quote the reply above, one of many helpful replies, for agreement. </p>
<p>I have three sons and one daughter. We have mostly been homeschooling, but my oldest son has ended up taking a lot of distance learning classes over the years and University of Minnesota classes for several years. He has multiple college acceptances but is waiting for a few more. I think I didn’t do the best job of finding a male-friendly fit for my son’s secondary education that I could have, but I have also told him that no one can optimize all aspects of his environment. Sometimes he just has to deal with his current environment as it is, and sustain hope in the crummy present that his work can be rewarded with a better future. Our present has been especially crummy because of the long-term illness of relatives in my part of the extended family. My wife’s family, much more supportive, is far away in another country. But our oldest son has exceeded expectations for someone in his economic circumstances and is certainly far, far better prepared for college than I was at the same age. For that matter, he is even more well prepared for the world of paid work than I was at the same age. It’s an arms race out there. My generation was the beginning of women in the United States no longer being socially discouraged out of participation in whole categories of occupations. Today’s boys have to step up to do as well as today’s girls. It’s disappointing when [insert name of famous college here] doesn’t admit a child who was longing for years to enter a more intellectually oriented environment, but adult life does get better for a lot of boys–it did for me–just by escaping the high school presumption of the kid being a kid. Not being admitted to this or that college is indeed a disappointment, but not a tragedy. There are a lot of colleges, and there are a lot of paths to personal success. </p>
<p>So to the OP and other parents similarly situated I sympathetically say, “What a drag.” Encourage Junior to roll forward, not backward, after each setback, and remind him that he is still young and has the great opportunity to build daily habits that steadily add up to success. High schools make a LOT of mistakes in the United States, and that leads to college admission offices making mistakes. The free-enterprise economic system provides considerably more second chances, and that is where most of us end up.</p>
<p>I’m trying hard to put things into perspective, but given my state of mind right now, I am not sure I’ll be able to put this across in the best way, so try to bear with me.</p>
<p>I’m the mom of 2 bright, talented, sons who were high school slackers. Younger son got on track at a second tier LAC after taking a post high school gap year. He’s now happily coming up to his potential.</p>
<p>Older S flunked out of a second tier public, which had given him a virtually full ride due to his high scores and extraordinary EC, which he had pursued independently. He then spent a couple of years partying and being estranged from my husband and his sibling. At times, we didn’t even know where he was living or what state he was in. Over the past 4 years, though, he reestablished ties with us, has been working for a company, and has settled down.</p>
<p>One of my good friends and I have often commiserated about our two sons and how they had been performing under their potential. One of her two sons finally got on track at about age 20, finished community college and started this fall at the state flagship, where he was doing well. Then, about a week ago, he was killed in a freak accident.</p>
<p>She buried him yesterday.</p>
<p>Yes, while it is disappointing when our beloved sons don’t come up to their academic potential, there really are much worse things. I know plenty of successful, high achieving, ethical adult men who while in their teens and early to mid 20s slacked, partied, drifted, and did things that were stupid and risky.</p>
<p>Mourn if you wish where your son might have been heading to college if he had been more focused in high school, but do realize that where there is life, there is hope, and he still has plenty of opportunity to live a happy, productive, successful, ethical, fulfilled life. Going to Caltech or MIT would not have guaranteed that he would have lived a marvelous life. Your son is still young, and this disappointment may be exactly what he needed to get on track for what he’s capable of doing.</p>
<p>^^^^I really like that, Northstarmom: “Where there is life, there is hope.”</p>
<p>I’m a new poster, though I discovered the CC community some months ago. My daughter is a senior heading to Cornell as an animal science major, with a strong interest in working with birds. She has been a regular weekly volunteer at a bird rehab center for nearly two years, and I believe that helped her application alot (she did meet their basic minimums for GPA and SATs, which most colleges have although they won’t say so). So there are some “different” routes for kids with clear interests (and disinterests!) outside the high school environment. </p>
<p>I wanted to respond to a couple of messages about outlining chapters and notetaking as wastes of time and effort. While I agree that grading notes is pretty silly, taking notes and outlining chapters is standard procedure for law students, medical students, engineering students, graduate students in the sciences, and others. There is simply too much material to remember without careful notetaking, and creating outlines records information in a logical way that requires the student understand what they are reading. Learning how to do this well in high school gives students a definite advantage over peers who have never done it. It’s not busywork if the teacher presents it as a skill and sees to it that the students master that skill.</p>
<p>That having been said, there is an awful lot of busywork assigned in schools, especially during the elementary years. It can be a turnoff for bright kids. And elementary school is definitely girl-oriented, with its emphasis on compliance, being quiet, sitting stilll, etc. – but it was even more so years ago. In most classrooms today, there is much more moving around, activities rather than lectures, and hands-on work than there was when I was in school. </p>
<p>Late bloomers still bloom, some quite beautifully. Give the boy time, celebrate his successes at the so-called safety school, and encourage him to enjoy his interests. Taking a disappointment well is a major step in growing up.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, condolences to your family and to your friend. What a sad and tragic story.</p>
<p>I don’t think the OP ever implied, or even thinks, that not getting into Caltech is a tragedy or even a very bad, awful, terrible thing. Of course it pales in comparison to all the truly awful and tragic things that happen to kids in the world. And of course she is cognizant that her son’s life isn’t over, that he has many opportunities to grow and reach and love and be loved.</p>
<p>So while your friends story is so very sad, I don’t think the OP is one of those self-absorbed parents some of us know in real life who need to have their little cages shaken every so often. She posted looking for a little sympathy and some hot tea from people who know how frustrating and aggravating it is to have a smart child to whom certain things come so easily… who just doesn’t want to color inside the lines. Many of us have multiple children- and when you have one who just sucks up learning with virtually no effort and who “gets it” but who can’t be bothered to hand in homework… vs. the child who is doggedly trying to work through last year’s math workbook all summer so he or she can try and be an average kid in the lowest math group… well, it’s painful. The kid whose brain freezes up works like a dog to be average; the kid who is reading chapter books in the first grade and doing calculus in middle school seems determined to blow all chances at even being average just by being lazy… well, it’s not a tragedy, nobody is ill, nobody is dead- but it is damn trying.</p>
<p>So that’s the perspective. We all wish you love and compassion as you help your friend deal with the grief. And OP- yes, it is painful to watch your kid drift through HS. But I feel confident that he will have a fire lit under him in college.</p>
<p>To some of the posters wondering why the thread turned nasty… many of us are professional women who resent the implication that we work less than men or that our educations yielded a lower ROI than that of the guy sitting next to us. Some of us are Ivy League or other “elite” type school graduates-- and we resent the implication that therefore we are too status obsessed to understand what a great education you can get in a state U or even a CC. Some of us are professionals who have chosen to earn less than we could have for family reasons, and others have opted to maximize their income in order to support elderly or ill relatives, support causes we believe in, etc. And some of us have girls who are the ones who got turned off in HS and have sons who did their homework and were well liked by teachers… and maybe those parents get testy that just because their sons were diligent, all of a sudden, they’re supposed to be calling for the abolition of HS since it discriminates against males. (not all males, just your males.)</p>
<p>So demonizing any of us or our choices makes threads turn nasty really quickly. This is a good place to come for a good old fashioned cry, or to get information, or to get a reality check on the insanity of parenting a young adult or adolescent depending on your circumstances. This is a bad place to start criticizing people who send their kids to private school, are working moms or stay at home moms, or people who make too much money to qualify for aid and yet can’t afford their EFC. Most of us see all sides of an argument and try to be supportive of other people’s life circumstances and situations… and we get annoyed at others who don’t.</p>
<p>Enough of the culture wars in real life, eh???</p>
<p>I’m a new poster, though I discovered the CC community some months ago. My daughter is a senior heading to Cornell as an animal science major, with a strong interest in working with birds. She has been a regular weekly volunteer at a bird rehab center for nearly two years, and I believe that helped her application alot (she did meet their basic minimums for GPA and SATs, which most colleges have although they won’t say so). So there are some “different” routes for kids with clear interests (and disinterests!) outside the high school environment. </p>
<p>I wanted to respond to a couple of messages about outlining chapters and notetaking as wastes of time and effort. While I agree that grading notes is pretty silly, taking notes and outlining chapters is standard procedure for law students, medical students, engineering students, graduate students in the sciences, and others. There is simply too much material to remember without careful notetaking, and creating outlines records information in a logical way that requires the student understand what they are reading. Learning how to do this well in high school gives students a definite advantage over peers who have never done it. It’s not busywork if the teacher presents it as a skill and sees to it that the students master that skill.</p>
<p>That having been said, there is an awful lot of busywork assigned in schools, especially during the elementary years. It can be a turnoff for bright kids. And elementary school is definitely girl-oriented, with its emphasis on compliance, being quiet, sitting stilll, etc. – but it was even more so years ago. In most classrooms today, there is much more moving around, activities rather than lectures, and hands-on work than there was when I was in school. </p>
<p>Late bloomers still bloom, some quite beautifully. Give the boy time, celebrate his successes at the so-called safety school, and encourage him to enjoy his interests. Taking a disappointment well is a major step in growing up.</p>
<p>Boys and girls are so different that their HS records should be looked at differently by the adcoms. Has anyone paid attention to the latest issue of Time (3/29/10)? The cholesterol-lowering drugs, statins, may work differently on men and women. Well, I know men and women are equal politically.</p>
<p>It’s quite interesting seeing this from the parent’s perspective.</p>
<p>It almost seems as if parents stress out more than us students do…</p>
<p>Okay, so, wait…</p>
<p>debrockman complains that women don’t put in as many hours as men and therefore aren’t as desirable, and yet also states that (s)he does not expect her husband to be a 50% parent. Men and women are different - I get that. But debrockman seems to have some sexism issues. I agree that the busy work in schools is outrageous. But that’s not an excuse not to do it. I’m a cashier. I have to say “welcome to _____” even when my customers are LEAVING. I think it’s stupid and counter-productive. That doesn’t mean I can just dismiss the duty because it’s beneath me. I think that those who dismiss such things as “bravo points” are going to have a lot of trouble in life, and that trouble has NOTHING to do with Ivy-like schools.</p>
<p>The problem with smart boys is beginning to concern colleges. We need men to stay in the job market, because women ultimately do not work as many hours as men. As our medical school classes are filling up with women, we are getting a lower ROI on their contributions because women who marry ultimately will not work the same number of hours. Colleges are giving more consideration to the boys trying to boost their numbers.</p>
<p>As much as we hate to think this kind of stuff is true, it does happen more with mothers than fathers. Married mothers do often family track themselves, reduce to part-time, or leave the work-force for periods of time to take care of children. </p>
<p>Over the years, I’ve known 8 female doctors who have “family tracked” themselves by leaving the work force entirely or to work 1 or 2 days of week in “urgent care,” so that they can take care of their children. I also know one female physician who went back and retrained for an entirely different (less demanding) specialty because her first specialty kept her away from her family too much. </p>
<p>I don’t know any male doctors who’ve done these things. I’m not saying that there aren’t any young male doctors who’ve completely stopped working - say in their early 30s - to stay home with their little ones; I just don’t know any. I’ve known some to retire early or take on a second career, but that is different.</p>
<p>And what about all the female doctors who never marry or who don’t want children? My brother-in-law left a lucrative private practice, took a big pay cut, and joined an insurance company (a job he swore he’d never ever consider) so he could work 8-6 and attend the occasional afternoon ballet recital or soccer game.</p>
<p>Turning family issues into the battle of male/female seems like turning the clock back to 1975. There are many family friendly careers- cardiology isn’t one of them, professional ballet dancer isn’t one of them, symphony conductor isn’t one of them. Debrock seems to be in search of a big societal melt-down to explain her own family situation and I’m not sure she’s going to find one. Yes- her H’s health is a crappy situation, and for sure means that they need to consider the cost of their son’s education very seriously. But how does this relate to female physicians??? and to her son’s underachievement in school? And colleges need to worry about accepting more men? I doubt Purdue’s engineering department is in any danger of becoming a pink collar ghetto anytime soon. There are plenty of smart HS boys with high scores and high GPA’s.</p>
<p>Many of us have had kids who haven’t performed to their potential in their school. Some have stuck with it, some have moved, some have made a change (homeschooling, online supplements, etc). But to stick with it, be bitter about it, blame the female oriented nature of HS’s which are encouraging too many women to become physicians at the expense of the men who’d work harder and have a higher ROI on their education?? Seems like a stretch.</p>
<p>I manage a big team- there are ambitious men, there are ambitious women, there are 9-5’ers who want to do their job and then hit the gym or the bar or see their kids. Some work their tails off and others like to coast. Frankly- this is not a gender issue-- except that the women are definitely more likely to turn their own personal preferences or lifestyle choices into someone else’s problem. I don’t care why someone takes a personal day (that’s why it’s called a personal day and not a “my kid has pink-eye day”). </p>
<p>Just my observation. Back to our original programming.</p>
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Ya think? ;)</p>
<p>We stress out so much because we feel responsible for the outcome, but have even less control over it than our kids do. Responsibility - control = stress.</p>
<p>blossom–you are really rocking and rolling in this thread.</p>
<p>“except that the women are definitely more likely to turn their own personal preferences or lifestyle choices into someone else’s problem.”
Can you elaborate - I’m curious…</p>
<p>Well said, blossom. I know many “Mr Moms” , professional women with very busy schedules, those who co-parent with their spouses and those with no children. Some of the childless women work crazy long hours, some work 9-5 and still complain.(That goes for the men too). I know single mothers with jobs that require travel, and women (with children) deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. Agree, This isnt a gender issue. </p>
<p>That said, women tend to mature a bit earlier than men, physically and psychologically. However, I have to wonder. Would this thread have taken the turn it did if it was about a slacker daughter instead of son? </p>
<p>Back to the topic… Hoping things will look up for the OP and her son, and the rest of you still waiting for more fat envelopes.</p>
<p>I have noticed at our high school where I have had kids for over 7 years now that the spring awards program is more and more dominated by the girls. I tell my older one who had a lot of success getting into selective schools that he was hooked and didn’t know it just by being male.</p>
<p>There are a bunch of very testy people here. My son is not an underachiever, first of all. He has outstanding statistics. He isn’t applying to 50k/yr. schools because he can get to the same place with more affordable options…and that’s what we can afford. I simply state facts and some people can’t deal with facts. I am not a sexist. I am a master’s degreed professional woman, who, because of my husband’s health issues, has ALWAYS held a professional full time job. And the ridiculous people who think an understaffed small town doctor and an HR manager are going to carry equivalent roles in a home haven’t hung around any physicians lately. But the facts are, professional women do not on average work as many hours as men, so it is a problem for us to throw away our men…particularly in the medical professions. I was a nurse recruiter. I can’t tell you how many nurses leave the profession after marriage. I can’t tell you how many female physicians are not working full time. I’ll post statistics if you need to see them. We need our men. It may be ok with you that women are achieving so much more than men, but it shouldn’t be ok. Men are committing suicide at higher and higher rates. Men are “dropping out” literally and figuratively at astonishing rates. They aren’t marrying. They aren’t caring for their kids. We have a societal problem. It isn’t universal, but it is too large. And it starts with underachieving boys. Some of them hit a few bumps and bounce back into the track, but too many of them don’t. And to justify that with ridiculous statements about how life requires us to do lots of stupid things “get over it”, is to show a distinct lack of understanding of the state of our young boys, or a lack of concern. I have worked very hard to make sure that my son, who was grade accelerated, had competitive sports opportunities. Boys are physically different than girls, like it or not. Sports clear their heads, release negative energy, teach them to work in teams, teach them to work their way out of failure. I’m not saying that girls don’t need these things, too. I don’t think we need to push aside competent girls for underachieving boys. But that’s what a lot of schools are doing. Because for one reason or another, our boys have not been achieving at as high of a level. And in comparing men to women in the workplace, I believe that men don’t tend to get as snagged in the minutia as women do. I think that’s the biggest reason why the C-Suite tends to be dominated by men…the same men who had no interest in how pretty their notebooks looked, but rather, were thinking about the bigger picture.</p>
<p>That being said…of the 8 juniors in second year calculus at our public high school, 7 of them are boys…3 are asian, 2 are pakistani, 1 is Indiana, and there is one lone caucasion boy. My son. Boys remain the outliers…statistically on both ends of the spectrum…the super intelligent and the below average. I don’t know exactly why, but statistics bear this out.</p>
<p>You know, I was thinking Esobay about the “thing” with your son, and all the other intelligences there are.</p>
<p>I was thinking about how my oldest was very, very shy for a long time, probably up til the end of her senior year almost and how when she was deciding on colleges this facet of her life, her social IQ, which she will tell you was NOT kicking in until she was around 17, really factored into her wanting a smaller campus.</p>
<p>This year, her freshman year, she’s really just gone out into the world and is no longer painfully shy…she’s probably not the loudest one in the room, but she has no problem BEING in the room.</p>
<p>I think there are lots of different ways our kids grow up at different rates, and I really believe college is the beginning of the road and not the end of the road for a lot of kids in a lot of different areas. FWIW.</p>
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<p>Actually from this post…the outliers are the GIRLS…there is only ONE girl in the group. What does that say?</p>
<p>To the OP…I apologize for the OFF TOPIC turn this thread has taken. I wish there were some way to separate this thread into the boys vs girls thread…and the “disappointed about college denials” thread.</p>