<p>Atomicfusion, believe what you want. Sure, terrorists wake up one day and decide to make a journey halfway accross the world to blow themselves up in an attempt to kill a couple of infidels because they hate their freedom. If that makes sense to you, by all means, believe it.</p>
<p>Alexandre, if you really think that terrorist kill because they hate freedom, than thats idiotic.</p>
<p>Primitivefuture, I think you mean Atomicfusion I never said that terrorists kill because they hate freedom. I said terrorits kill out of despreration and revenge.</p>
<p>oops, sorry Alexandre, i was supposed to refer that to atomicfusion.</p>
<p>"I said terrorits kill out of despreration and revenge."</p>
<p>It cant get any more true than that. Yes, terrorism is wrong, but think of what actually caused this rise in terrorism. Ignorance and disrespect of the Islamic world is the main reason for terrorism from extreme jihadists IMO.</p>
<p>No matter what anyone says, current bitterness towards Arabs and Muslims do prevail in the United States and some Western world.</p>
<p>i don't think you can call it "loosing" but retrospectively it was a poor tactical decision and seems to me like Vietnam2. you can't call it "loosing" since it's not like america is being conquered or something like that, but it's a mess that's for sure. It's easy to see why the war was wrong (in the short term, meaning now, terrorism increased, no WOMD were found, Al-Qaeda wasn't link to Iraq and the invation didn't help the capture of Bin-Laden, and of course the warming up Irani front in which the US can't use the army since all of it is in Iraq), but you can also see positive influences, which for now, still stand smal next to all the mentioned above (positive influences: sparks of democracy all over the world:
the Ukraine, Lebanon, Egypt, this directly effects terrorsim since the administration estimates that democracies won't turn to terror), maybe this war might eventually symbolize the end of one-man regimes througout the world, and maybe it would be considered as Vietnam2.</p>
<p>I have to agree with DanC on this one.</p>
<p>DanC, so do you think that even though Iran is becoming a threat, the US cant do anything about it (alone) since all of its army would already be used up in Iraq?</p>
<p>Alexandre, you presented, what in my opinion is, a VERY wrong theory about terrorsim. I won't argue about what the US is or isn't doing in the middle east. but one thing is for sure, Islam society has a problem and like every problem - Islam scoiety should admit to it. people are being brainwashed since early age, the way of terrorism is being poured since early age. you said that "they have nothing left". I am sorry but that is just wrong from every way you look at it. for start, other people in history were in FAR WORST situation than muslim, which you claim are in a bad situation (this isn't the discussion), and still didn't fight in such notorious manner, farther more, MANY suicide bombers come from a stable background and were never stripped of their belonings or anything like that (say... the UK bombers, they were students at Leads University). I don't want to open a front of who is right or wrong about the war, what I think muslim society need to accept and announce (for now, it's not been done) is that terrorism (meaning acts aimed soly against civilians in order to acheive max casulties) isn't an option when fighting another nation to acheive whichever goal. muslim society should object terrorsim everywhere on the globe, and not just where it found it comfotable to denounce it (US, UK...), see, you can't praise terrorism say in Israel and object it in the UK - it's the terrorism itself you should object and not the political goal it represents.</p>
<p>I keep repeating "muslim society" not because I have something aganist muslim, but because of a simple reason - while not all muslims are terrorists, all terrorists are muslims, that means muslim society need some serious thinking.</p>
<p>all I written is free of politics what so ever, I am not looking for anyone to debate me wether the US should or shouldn't have invade Iraq any other middle-east thing, simply to agree with me (i hope :-) ) regarding what I wrote about terrorism and arab/muslim society.</p>
<p>*we can agree on some stuff premitive lol :-)</p>
<p>about Iran, It is a good question:
In my opinion the west and the free world should do whatever in his power to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapon, I can elborate about it but i think it's very important that such nation won't have such power. some say that because the US is close to Iran right now it would be easier to "threat" Iran, I think that looking at Iraq this claim is a bit problematic, I'd rather be in a situation in which the world can try all diplomatic measures against Iran and would still have the military option to beck it up, yet I don't trust the EU to provide this military option (which I think can be used just as a threat rather than an real option). now Iran is becoming a regional empire and on top of that they got a newly elected president who is even more extreme then the previous one.</p>
<p>"Islam scoiety should admit to it. people are being brainwashed since early age, the way of terrorism is being poured since early age."</p>
<p>Okay, you must understand that terrorism isnt part of Muslim culture and I doubt terrorism influences Muslims from childhood, thats just my personal opinion. Muslims are terrorists because of Western bitterness towards them, that is very true.</p>
<p>"newly elected president who is even more extreme then the previous one."</p>
<p>Yes, thats true. He has a terrorist background, as he openly expressed his
hatred towards the US and Jews.</p>
<p>I NERVE CLAIMED ISLAM = TERROR!, thinking that way would be aweful. yet there one thing you should notice: in recent history many nations and people were abused, yet only muslims result to terrorism (exclude this undeground in spain since they actually give a notice before most of their actions) other chose to fought the occupaing armies. facts show you simply CAN'T say that terrorsim accures because of poverty or military abuse, for start, other nations in recent history who suffered military abused and/or poverty didn't result to terrorism, second, many of the terrorist come from financially stable beckground who never suffered any of the above (the suicide bombers in the UK were students at Leads University).
one more claim was that western presence produced terrorism, that is quite absurd since Iran recently announced that many recruited there to be suicide bombers and the west hasn't been in Iran since the revolution. In Iran brainwashing is simply a hazard, in many parts of the muslim world it isn't better: I often get to watch shows broadcasted at many muslim / arab countries that all contain, usually, anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish propganda and with it the support of the west in what shown as the demonic Israel / Jews. If one watched that instead of 90210 it's a short way to commit suicide. (broadcasts and street propganda also include prasing of "shahids" - that is suicide bombers).</p>
<p>*don't get me wrong, I do agree that every nation (Arab, muslim, christian or whatever) can resist another nation which control it, yet there is way to resist and terrorism isn't that way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ignorance and disrespect of the Islamic world is the main reason for terrorism from extreme jihadists IMO.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nothing could be more wrong than that theory. Terrorism thrives where there is chaos. If you think America has "disrespected" the arab world, then certainly America has "disrespected" other parts of the world, correct? America... or I'll just say Americans... have disrespected the French, for example. Granted the French aren't too fond of Americans, but I don't see many French terrorists. And also I don't think terrorists would murder for the sake of American ignorance. Americans are ignorant of a lot of things around the world. I agree that terrorists are desperate, though. Revenge, no. They think they are killing out of revenge, but that's because they have been brainwashed to think that. I don't see how home grown American terrorists (that guy from Cali, I forget his name) can become terrorists out of revenge.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Atomicfusion, believe what you want. Sure, terrorists wake up one day and decide to make a journey halfway accross the world to blow themselves up in an attempt to kill a couple of infidels because they hate their freedom. If that makes sense to you, by all means, believe it.
[/quote]
They hate their freedom? No, they hate our freedom as they don't really have any. They have been brainwashed all of their lives.</p>
<p>Sure, terrorists wake up one day and decide to make a journey halfway accross the world to blow themselves up in an attempt to kill a couple of infidels because America is ignorant and may have disrespected their religious group. If that makes sense to you, by all means, believe it.</p>
<p>i am sure that my argument makes more sense. atomicfusion, no offense, but you sound like those conservative whackos who would believe any Bs spoken by Bush or any right-sided media.</p>
<p>And you sound like one of those wacko liberals who watches CNN and Al Jazeera and believes anything Michael Moore says and blames America for the world's problems. But, it is understandable why some people cannot realize that terrorists are just brainwashed... because those same people are brainwashed by the liberal media their entire lives too...</p>
<p>Ok...I think I have stayed out of this conversation long enough and now it is time to put my views out there.</p>
<p>Firstly, as a brief point before I start on the actual war, atomicfusion...the media is not liberal. It would be good of you to actually realize who owns these media companies and where their political affiliations lie. News outlets in print or on television have one goal and that is profit. The owners of these companies will do anything to increase profits for themselves. They therefore are much more in line with current conservative economic policies and in order to stay within the good graces of the government and not get censored (yes...oh my god...there is censoring in the US media) they do support stories that are more in line with current government policies. That is a simple fact.</p>
<p>Now..onto the war. I don't see how in any way, shape or form we are actually winning this war. I do thoroughly enjoy when conservatives point to the fact that Iraq had elections and how they were totally free and democratic. The analogy I like to use is when the U.S.S.R. was around. The Soviet Government occupied many previously independent states (such as Afghanistan, Georgia and Latvia). Elections were held there and said to be "free and independent." Now, we all know this was untrue because the CCCP occupied those nations and controlled the elections. The exact same thing is happening in Iraq. The newly elected government is one that we want, not one that the people want. We can control anything about their country that we want, including elections.</p>
<p>Iraq was run by Saddam's Ba'athist party. The Ba'ath party was a secular party who despised religion and its influence in everyday life. Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups do believe in religion and then isn't it highly unlikely that a secular government would ever knowingly house people who used religion to spread their beliefs? Just doesn't seem to add up...</p>
<p>Now...about the terrorists. Look, terrorists have many reasons to attack the United States and our allies. Freedom is one, fundamentalists religious ideology is another, revenge for our mettling in Middle East affairs (especially Israel/Palestine and Iraq). They aren't afraid of freedom. Now, while I enjoy freedom, I think it is extremely ethnocentric to think that our way of life is superior to theirs. That is not our decision to make. They are most angry at the fact that we don't respect their way of life in general. This "they" I am referring to is the extremely small minority of fundamentalists who misinterpret the Quran to think it provides the argument for their attacks.</p>
<p>With the fact that there are no WMD's, there isn't a solid connection that Iraq ever helped terrorists, we are losing soldiers everyday, thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians are being killed and there is a new rise of young fundamentalists angry at our occupation, how are we winning this war?</p>
<p>Atomicfufusion, when I said "their freedom" I was talking about the freedom of the innocent victims, not fo the murderers.</p>
<p>And if you think the only offense the US has committed against those terrorists is insult their religion, think again. Insulting their religion is not even scratching the surface. I am sure by merely insulting their religion, you would create a couple of whackos, but not an entire network of wackos! It takes a lot more to create such a large and violent response. Having lived my entire life in the Middle East, I have even some of your country's handy work. I wouldn't be so proud if I were you!</p>
<p>Pakistan's not an Arab country...just for clarification :)...furthermore...you'll here several intellegence analysts, news anchors, and Congressmen say that Iraq wasn't a haven for terrorists before the 'war.'</p>