So...asians...are we really that screwed?

Applying to College
141

<ol>
<li>Please provide examples of when I have "resurrected" other stereotypes, and please provide the context. Resurrected implies that I am presently using stereotypes which are no longer used. I would be most interested if you were able to produce a single one.</li>
</ol>

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<ol>
<li>I do not advocate the abolition of race-based affirmative action "just" to correct negative comments about Asians. I advocate its end because I am against its principle of giving a person extra consideration based on his race, which in my opinion, is counter to the very ideals set forth by our nation's founders.</li>
</ol>

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<ol>
<li>It would become everybody's business if I did what you have claimed that I have done, but I have not done what you have claimed.</li>
</ol>

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<ol>
<li>Which stereotypes? Resurrected ones or actively used ones? Examples of my usage of either, please?</li>
</ol>

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<ol>
<li>Such a tactic would be interesting if it were actually used. Wealth is the factor behind almost everything you have mentioned. You've talked about students not being able to afford tests. You've talked about wealthy students who can buy everything. When I asked you to explain why many students admitted to Harvard under legacy preferences fail to graduate with honors, you responded with the claim that such people don't need the honor because they were already connected (ie. they had money).</li>
</ol>

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<p>I absolutely support using stats when college admissions is at stake. No doubt in my mind. </p>

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<p>I object to your claim that I minimize differences between East and Southeast Asians. The current race-sensitive affirmative action policy does not make a uniform distinction between the two, which hurts both groups as well as other Asians.</p>

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<p>Please provide a single instance in which I have touted the "superiority of Asians" and its context. Would you like to continue conjuring things out of thin air? Please be my guest. Um, I'll assume that I belong to the "those people" group.</p>

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<p>Would you please demonstrate when and where (in context, if you don't mind) I have ever stated that Asians are "better" or "more deserving"? Wow, I had no idea that fighting against comments like "not another boring Asian" would result in me being associated to such false claims. Maybe I should just let Asians get stereotyped. On second thought, hell no.</p>

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<p>I love how you have taken my use of the phrase "my business" grossly out of context. I said that it is "my business" when comments like "not another boring Asian" are accepted as truth. Remember? Or would you like to continue taking my words out of their original context?</p>

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<p>I think a better way to put it would be "Some colleges are recognizing the differences." I'll ignore your assertion that I "often do not."</p>

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<p>I'm going to bring back your original example of Muhammad Yunus and the Grameen Bank. Your use of the example was inappropriate because you ignored one of the key features of his policy - availability of microloans to any group that applied. Under what you propose, only some people should receive loans, while others should be shut out. How is it "investing in human capital" when you say someone can receive a loan and someone else cannot?</p>

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142

<p>Fab:</p>

<p>(Continuation of my response to you)</p>

<p>For someone who makes a fuss about being the victim of non-existent "name-calling", you sure like to dish out what you can't take.</p>

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<p>I'll convert to Sufi Islam if you can demonstrate a SINGLE instance of when I have supported the use of a stereotype or claimed that Asians are superior. And you MUST give the original context.</p>

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<p>:)</p>

143

<p>wow, that one long post....</p>

144

<p>Sorry, had to respond to Fab....</p>

145

<p>Anyone here ever feel resentment toward a minority candidate who is favored by affirmative action when you know that in a true meritocracy, you would be the better candidate?</p>

<p>Sweet, sweet irony.</p>

146

<p>
[quote]
Again, great debate technique. Actually, those who advocated for the creation and implementation of Jim Crow laws as well as those opposed to integration of school are TWO examples of stereotypes whose reasoning (that of ‘natural ability’) you resurrected by saying that test stats are the best indicators of fitness for all college applicants.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's funny. I asked you to give me some examples of when I have “resurrected” stereotypes as well as their contexts. But, I see neither quotations nor elaborations. I only see an unfounded assertion.</p>

<p>The people who supported Jim Crow laws and segregation supported the idea racial inequality. They supported the use of race as a factor. By contrast, I support the abolition of race as a factor. See the difference?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Right…being that if it were up to the founding fathers only white males with property would have any clout. You’re sure to make women, and all minority groups happy with that justification.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness – do these mean anything to you?</p>

<p>
[quote]

You advocate that AA should be dismantled, and we should instead use economic AA, never mind that prevailing attitudes regarding other non-minority groups manifest themselves in political, social, and economic exclusion—which you do not recognize. You say that East Asians and Southeast Asians are the same, while they are not. See, response to number 1.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Um, I don't see any examples of my using stereotypes, but I do see a baseless statement. I said that East Asians and Southeast Asians are the same? Example of when I have said this? Are you going to make another thing up?</p>

<p>Also, your statement doesn't make any sense. Existing perceptions on the majority carry over to political, social, and economic exclusion of minorities? So, you're saying that what a minority thinks of a White man can cause him to be excluded politically, socially, and economically? Would you elaborate on that, or have I misunderstood you?</p>

<p>
[quote]

My original statement in italics
Such a tactic would be interesting if it were actually used. Wealth is the factor behind almost everything you have mentioned. You've talked about students not being able to afford tests. You've talked about wealthy students who can buy everything. When I asked you to explain why many students admitted to Harvard under legacy preferences fail to graduate with honors, you responded with the claim that such people don't need the honor because they were already connected (ie. they had money).</p>

<p>Yes, as do you, since you would need to recognize the inequity to forward economic AA as an answer to level the playing field. If economic indicators did not bear a relationship to performance, social class, access to power,, etc…it would be moot, wouldn’t it. BTW, you also have not proven that there is a causal relationship between legacy performance and Honors at Harvard. The only thing you can claim is that legacies perhaps do not seek the Honors designation. This is similar to Asians that live in Hawaii (where they are the majority), where their performance is not always the critical factor in their maintenance of political, social, and economic power.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wait a minute. I'm connected? Me, the son of two immigrants, neither of whom graduated from an Ivy League university? I'm somehow as connected globally as the son of a Harvard family? Wow, I guess I can run for President, after all. </p>

<p>Obviously, economic indicators would be irrelevant if they were unrelated to performance, social class, and access to power. In any case, let's not forget one point you have made. Apparently, the SAT is biased in favor of rich whites because they can pay for just about everything. There's your performance. Money affects the availability of books in a household, the willingness of parents to take their children to museums, and the involvement of parents in their children's education. There's your social class. Access to power? Does it surprise you that our current President is a Yale alumna and that he probably received zero need-based aid?</p>

<p>What kind of cause and effect relationship do you want? I asked you to reconcile your belief that the SAT is skewed in favor of rich whites with the fact that most students admitted to Harvard under legacy preferences fail to graduate with honors. Seek the honors designation? You don't “seek” it, you earn it with high grades. That's not something that can be bought, by the way.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Actually, a uniform response is not what I said occurs. What hurts Southeast Asians is that East Asians often are better-off socio-economically, and that by advocating for Asians, without respect to their differences, would be more harmful for Southeast Asians.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm advocating against racial preferences as a whole, not for one group.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Thin air? Hardly. By stating that test stats be used as the defining characteristic in college admissions decisions, you implicitly make the assumption and play into the positive Asian stereotype. Yet you bristle when others sometimes see Asians as stat driven but a little bit ‘boring’. Actually, I belong to those groups that would benefit if stats were used. In fact, using your supposition that it should be the main factor in admission, I would then have gotten an acceptance letter from all the schools I applied to. I would not have been waitlisted at my first choice, nor would only ‘some’ of the Ivies have taken me. I guess I should be upset about that since I am part East Asian, shouldn’t I?! I think not.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>OK, once again I see no instance in which I have touted the superiority of Asians. I do, however, see an inference which is incorrect. How is supporting test stats playing into the positive Asian stereotype? Is it not possible for a Black or Hispanic student to score a 2400? Am I playing into a Black, Hispanic, or White stereotype by supporting test stats?</p>

<p>I bristle when others make claims like “not another boring Asian” and then try to defend their obvious racial bias. It's very simple.</p>

<p>Your personal experience argument is flawed because what I believe in and what universities do could be very different. Under the supposition of Hubilay Haan, Han people shouldn't be trusted. Does that mean that no one should trust a Han person? Well, under your logic, no one should.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, see all the above. By advocating the use of test stats as the driving force behind who is ‘deserving’ of a spot in college, you are playing into the Asian stereotype, as well as reinforcing the idea that other minority groups are not as qualified. Right, so you’d rather stereotype other minority groups to combat what you see as an Asian stereotype. Wow, again. Okay to stereotype other groups with respect to how qualified they are and not recognize that even positive stereotypes are destructive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, you have failed to produce a single quotation that demonstrated either my use of “resurrected” stereotypes or my support of “Asian superiority.” I think you failed because such quotations do not exist.</p>

<p>You know, I don't quite recall using the word deserving along with test stats. And, I don't see how advocating the use of test stats plays into the Asian stereotype, especially since high scoring Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites do exist, strange as it may seem to you.</p>

<p>Once again, you have claimed that I have stereotyped others to combat the negative perception of Asians. And, once again, you have failed to produce a single instance.</p>

147

<p>Depends on how meritocracy is defined and by whom.</p>

148

<p>
[quote]

Yes, I remember…then you advocate for the use of a single-sitting test to pick out the best college candidates. How is that out of context, exactly? Your position is quite clear actually. You believe that test stats are the best ‘indicators’ as you called it for use in the admissions process. Thus, you are making a judgment which manifests itself in the exclusion of other groups for your (and my) groups benefit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? I first used “my business” in the last paragraph of post 133. So, quite frankly, I have no idea where you have pieced together two posts as one.</p>

<p>Somehow, I get the feeling that you've come to believe that only Asians benefit from test scores. I don't know about you, but a 2400 is an impressive score from anyone, Black, Hispanic, White, Asian, or Native American. So, if a Black student who has a 2400 supports the use test stats as a factor in admission, is he buying into the Asian stereotype? Is he?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, you advocated that economic power is not a factor to inequity, nor is how the majority treats minorities socially, politically, economically a good reason for socioeconomic AA. If you get upset that the majority sometimes sees us as boring, as similar, as uniform, how is it that you can advocate for further reducing differences between and within subgroups in society by using test scores as the main determinant to who gets to go to a particular school? If you believe the colleges can do what they want, why would you have a problem if they chose to see Asians as boring? It is only your business because you care about group affiliation, rather than the individual merit or distinctions of an Asian or non-Asian applicant--whether in ECs, test scores, special talents, geographic location, grades, home state, legacy status, developmental status, etc….and ignorance can be bliss, I’ll grant you that.

[/quote]

Your first statement is awkwardly phrased as it contains a double negative. Please rephrase.</p>

<p>Test scores are quantifiable. The SAT is standardized. It doesn't matter if you took the test in Alabama or Wyoming. Hence, I support a benchmark by which students can be readily compared (c.f. highly subjective factors like “leadership”).</p>

<p>I'll say it once more. I have a problem when people make comments like “not another boring Asian” without realizing that it is an example of racial bias. Like I said, it becomes my business when such practices are tolerated.</p>

<p>I care about group affiliation? Interesting assertion, especially since I advocate the abolishment of racial preferences.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Actually, he lent to a group of people, who then lent out that money to others. And, Grameen Bank predominantly lent to the poor, not the wealthy, because Yunus recognized that by empowering those that were marginalized, that they could eventually rise above it (58%), given the chance. 97+% are microloans to women, btw. Yunus loaned money to those who could not borrow from the state controlled banks, either because of their gender, class, or lack of resources. Those commercial banks routinely forgave loans made to the affluent because they had political clout in Bangladesh, and politicians often campaigned on loan forgiveness. You advocate the opposite with respect to colleges, since you do not believe, as per your earlier statements, that those who are economically well-off have any advantage, that social class, ethnicity or gender have little to do with who should be given an opportunity to attend. If all those characteristics that make applicants different from one another are taken out, a larger and more ‘boring’ group of applicants would arise. But, I guess, in your eyes that is not such a bad scenario, since your (and my) group would benefit since we would tend to do well (if we ignore Hawaii SAT scores).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Notice how you have stated that essentially anyone could be the recipient of a microloan. However, by supporting race as a factor, you're shutting out people based on their RACE.</p>

<p>You've also misquoted me. I said that the very wealthy usually do not care about tuition costs because they are so financially secure. Middle class families often do not receive aid packages as large as those of poor families. They are the ones at a disadvantage.</p>

<p>Is it that hard for you to understand that comments like “not another boring Asian” are unacceptable?</p>

<p>In closing, I have to say a two things:</p>

<p>1.You make up a lot of assertions about me and then fail to bring forth a single quotation.
2.You believe that what you infer is the same as what I believe. You use your inferences in place of quotations from my posts.</p>

<p>My points on this issue can be summed up as follows:</p>

<p>1.I believe that stereotypes against Asians should be neither tolerated nor defended.
2.I believe that it is wrong to give one person additional consideration simply because of his race.
3.As far as test scores, they are the most quantifiable factor.</p>

149

<p>Fabio:</p>

<p>Funny. I asked you to give me some examples of when I have “resurrected” stereotypes as well as their contexts. But, I see neither quotations nor elaborations. I only see an unfounded assertion.</p>

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<p>People who supported Jim Crow laws and segregation supported the idea racial inequality. They supported the use of race as a factor. By contrast, I support the abolition of race as a factor. See the difference?</p>

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<p>Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness – do these mean anything to you?</p>

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<p>Um, I don't see any examples of my using stereotypes, but I do see a baseless statement. I said that East Asians and Southeast Asians are the same? Example of when I have said this? Are you going to make another thing up?</p>

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<p>Also, your statement doesn't make any sense. Existing perceptions on the majority carry over to political, social, and economic exclusion of minorities? So, you're saying that what a minority thinks of a White man can cause him to be excluded politically, socially, and economically? Would you elaborate on that, or have I misunderstood you?</p>

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<p>Wait a minute. I'm connected? Me, the son of two immigrants, neither of whom graduated from an Ivy League university? I'm somehow as connected globally as the son of a Harvard family? Wow, I guess I can run for President, after all. </p>

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<p>Obviously, if economic indicators would be irrelevant if they were unrelated to performance, social class, and access to power. In any case, let's not forget one point you have made. Apparently, the SAT is biased in favor of rich whites because they can pay for just about everything. There's your performance. Money affects the availability of books in a household, the willingness of parents to take their children to museums, and the involvement of parents in their children's education. There's your social class. Access to power? Does it surprise you that our current President is a Yale alumna and that he probably received zero need-based aid?</p>

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<p>What kind of cause and effect relationship do you want? I asked you to reconcile your belief that the SAT is skewed in favor of rich whites with the fact that most students admitted to Harvard under legacy preferences fail to graduate with honors. Seek the honors designation? You don't “seek” it, you earn it with high grades. That's not something that can be bought, by the way.</p>

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<p>I'm advocating against racial preferences as a whole, not for one group.</p>

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<p>OK, once again I see no instance in which I have touted the superiority of Asians. I do, however, see an inference which is incorrect. How is supporting test stats playing into the positive Asian stereotype? Is it not possible for a Black or Hispanic student to score a 2400? Am I playing into a Black, Hispanic, or White stereotype by supporting test stats?</p>

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<p>I bristle when others make claims like “not another boring Asian” and then try to defend their obvious racial bias. It's very simple.</p>

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<p>Your personal experience argument is flawed because what I believe in and what universities do could be very different. Under the supposition of Hubilay Haan, Han people shouldn't be trusted. Does that mean that no one should trust a Han person? Well, under your logic, no one should.</p>

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<p>Actually, you have failed to produce a single quotation that demonstrated either my use of “resurrected” stereotypes or my support of “Asian superiority.” I think you failed because such quotations do not exist.</p>

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<p>You know, I don't quite recall using the word deserving along with test stats. And, I don't see how advocating the use of test stats plays into the Asian stereotype, especially since high scoring Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites do exist, strange as it may seem to you.</p>

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<p>Once again, you have claimed that I have stereotyped others to combat the negative perception of Asians. And, once again, you have failed to produce a single instance.</p>

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150

<p>I would add more but there is a 10000 character limit.</p>

151

<p>Fabio:</p>

<p>Somehow, I get the feeling that you've come to believe that only Asians benefit from test scores. I don't know about you, but a 2400 is an impressive score from anyone, Black, Hispanic, White, Asian, or Native American. So, if a Black student who has a 2400 supports the use test stats as a factor in admission, is he buying into the Asian stereotype? Is he?</p>

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152

<p>Fabio:</p>

<p>Your first statement is awkwardly phrased as it contains a double negative. Please rephrase.</p>

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<p>Test scores are quantifiable. The SAT is standardized. It doesn't matter if you took the test in Alabama or Wyoming. Hence, I support a benchmark by which students can be readily compared (c.f. highly subjective factors like “leadership”).</p>

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<p>I'll say it once more. I have a problem when people make comments like “not another boring Asian” without realizing that it is an example of racial bias. Like I said, it becomes my business when such practices are tolerated.</p>

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<p>I care about group affiliation? Interesting assertion, especially since I advocate the abolishment of racial preferences.</p>

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153

<p>Fabio:</p>

<p>Notice how you have stated that essentially anyone could be the recipient of a microloan. However, by supporting race as a factor, you're shutting out people based on their RACE.</p>

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<p>You've also misquoted me. I said that the very wealthy usually do not care about tuition costs because they are so financially secure. Middle class families often do not receive aid packages as large as those of poor families. They are the ones at a disadvantage.</p>

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<p>Is it that hard for you to understand that comments like “not another boring Asian” are unacceptable?</p>

<br>


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<p>In closing, I have to say a two things:</p>

<p>1.You make up a lot of assertions about me and then fail to bring forth a single quotation.</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>2.You believe that what you infer is the same as what I believe. You use your inferences in place of quotations from my posts.</p>

<br>


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<p>My points on this issue can be summed up as follows:</p>

<p>1.I believe that stereotypes against Asians should be neither tolerated nor defended.</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>2.I believe that it is wrong to give one person additional consideration simply because of his race.</p>

<br>


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<p>3.As far as test scores, they are the most quantifiable factor. </p>

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154

<p>Would I stand out amonh admissions officers because i am so differnt from the smart asians here. I do not play an instrument, nor do i strive to excel in math ( i only have a 710 Math II and 730 Math I), but my E.C.s for leadership are ridiculously odd. </p>

<p>BTW i am Asian.</p>

<ol>
<li>Governor's Internship Program (for Practical Politics interest and class)- yes i had to apply and go through all this recommendation stuff. tough struggle, buy my e.c.s help. I volunteer their everyday meaning my day is cut down. </li>
<li>President of a 5 clubs at school. I.E. tutoring club, culture clubs, and leadership in Key Club. ( i manage because sometimes i work overtime at the governor internship program to make it up.)</li>
<li>Well i guess this is somehwat stereotypical but i do Cross country and Tennis for school and martial arts on the side. Yes, i have volunteered at a hospital for 400 hours. </li>
<li>I am an Eagle Scout. I am the only Asian person to have participated in National Youth Leadership Training Staff (for 3 years) - Boy Scout leadership course. yeah i was surrounded by white people, but i got a long really well.</li>
<li>Academic Decathlon team - i guess Asian do this, but i mean this is my zero period and i always feel dragged because my life is so pact.</li>
</ol>

<p>So let me tell you before you think that Asians are going toplay instruments and study math all day. I do not do that. If you truly believe that Asians don't do **** for leaderhip, then you better guess again. I can give speeches in front of people like nothing. I dont fear crowds of glaring eyes at me. </p>

<p>My Stats are as follows:</p>

<p>UC GPA: 3.88
GPA UW: 3.6
ACT :28
Math II: 710
USH : 690</p>

<p>I hate how people make stereotypes. I hope that admissions officers will see that i am quite different.</p>

155

<p>IsleBoy,</p>

<p>Please don't make me laugh. Let me enumerate the unbelievably strong assertions you have made against me.</p>

<p>From post 139,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Something is wrong when you resurrect other stereotypes and advocate the abolition of AA to correct for comment about Asians. When you do that, it becomes 'everyone's business'.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I asked you for examples of when I used such stereotypes as well as their respective contexts. You gave zero quotations. Not a single one.</p>

<p>From the same post,</p>

<p>
[quote]

Turning a particular belief in supposed Asian 'superiority' into an action that does have ramifications with respect to the educational, political, social, and economic scene, is unsavory.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I asked for one, just one instance in which I touted the superiority of Asians. You gave zero quotations. Not a single one.</p>

<p>From the same post,</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is those people who truely believe that Asians are better or more deserving, even as other Asians are oppressed by not having the stats that negatively impacts the larger Asian community.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Obviously, I belong to the "those people" group.</p>

<p>I asked you to demonstrate when and where (in context) I stated Asians are "better" or "more deserving." You gave zero quotations. Not a single one.</p>

<p>Instead of providing evidence, you ask me to "look at my previous posts." Um, yeah, I know what I have written, and none of the assertions you have made are supported. Not a single one.</p>

<p>YOU made three very strong statements against me. YOU have failed to provide a single direct quotation in support of your views. You instead rely on your personal interpretation of what you remember I have written, substituting your inferences for direct quotations.</p>

<p>I don't even want to bring up the connection you have made between supporting test stats as the best indicator of college readiness and buying into an Asian stereotype. It makes no sense whatsoever when students of other races are used as examples.</p>

<p>IsleBoy, I enjoy discussions, but I do not enjoy people making stuff up and saying that I should read my own posts for "proof." You've made the assertions, you back them up.</p>

156

<p>delirious_tree, might your post be a little more appropriate in a forum like What Are My Chances? While I understand the Asian relevance, it seems what you're looking for and what this thread is about do not coincide. I can also understand your frustration with stereotypes - but you can't deny general trends when you see them, and base something consisting of many parts on its majority. I'm not saying that a majority of Asians play instruments (although they do in my area, haha). There is simply no other efficient way to quickly judge a situation.</p>

<p>IsleBoy, thank you for the response and the luck. I delayed in responding because this failed to show up in my subscribed threads... -_-</p>

157

<p>Please don't make me laugh. Let me enumerate the unbelievably strong assertions you have made against me.</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>I asked you for examples of when I used such stereotypes as well as their respective contexts. You gave zero quotations. Not a single one.</p>

<p>(Quote 1) ‘Contrary to your beliefs, we are not homogeneous hivelike beings.’ </p>

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<p>(Quote 2) ‘Persecution complex? You make that remark as if it were unjustified for me to be angry at your nonchalant stereotyping of Asians.’ </p>

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<p>(Quote 3) ‘I believe that Asians are currently the only race in the United States who can be discriminated against without fear of reprisal.’ </p>

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<p>I asked for one, just one instance in which I touted the superiority of Asians. You gave zero quotations. Not a single one.</p>

<p>(Quote 4)‘We have people deriding us for placing a high emphasis on education.’ </p>

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<p>(Quote 5)’ Each individual is inherently unique. How can people, different by nature, fail to bring diversity to a campus? </p>

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<p>Obviously, I belong to the "those people" group. </p>

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<p>(Quote 7)’ I do, however, believe that treating stereotypes as truth is a bad thing, and that such practices should not be tolerated. </p>

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<p>Instead of providing evidence, you ask me to "look at my previous posts." Um, yeah, I know what I have written, and none of the assertions you have made are supported. Not a single ‘We have people deriding us for placing a high emphasis on education". </p>

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<p>YOU made three very strong statements against me. YOU have failed to provide a single direct quotation in support of your views. You instead rely on your personal interpretation of what you remember I have written, substituting your inferences for direct quotations.</p>

<p>(Quote A)’ There is certainly a way to distinguish applicants without using race, which is what demographics, social, historical, political, and economic backgrounds boil down to. In fact, you have already mentioned factors such as stats (includes grades, extracurriculars, and athletic ability), high school attended, and geographic residence, none of which depend on race.</p>

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<p>(Quote B)’ I do still propose that ethnicity be taken out altogether. There is no good reason to distinguish between two individuals based on race. There may be some good reasons to distinguish between two individuals based on socioeconomic status, but not race. </p>

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<p>I don't even want to bring up the connection you have made between supporting test stats as the best indicator of college readiness and buying into an Asian stereotype. It makes no sense whatsoever when students of other races are used as examples.</p>

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158

<p>"Contrary to your beliefs, we are not homogeneous hivelike beings."</p>

<p>
[quote]

Yet you advocate for using scores as the most important, which does benefit your (and my) group, but minimizes our differences.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, how does my quote demonstrate the resurrection of stereotypes? How does my quote demonstrate using one stereotype to counter another?</p>

<p>Also, you did not provide the context. That quotation comes from post 47. I directed that remark to epiphany because I felt that she was generalizing Asians collectively.</p>

<p>Advocating test scores as the most important factor does not benefit one group. It benefits anyone who has earned his scores. It's race-blind.</p>

<p>"Persecution complex? You make that remark as if it were unjustified for me to be angry at your nonchalant stereotyping of Asians."</p>

<p>
[quote]

Yet, you advocate the same with respect to test scores, which benefit…Asians (East Asians especially).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Once again, no context. I directed that remark to epiphany because she accused me of having a persecution complex. Once again, I see no resurrection of stereotypes or using one stereotype to counter another.</p>

<p>"I believe that Asians are currently the only race in the United States who can be discriminated against without fear of reprisal."</p>

<p>Hmm, I see no resurrection of stereotypes, nor do I see using one stereotype to counter another. Once again, you have provided no context. I made that remark because I saw several instances of bias against Asians, and none of these remarks were being called out. Let's not forget that a coach who says that blacks are better athletes is "racist", but a person who says that Asians are "2400 SAT drones" is not.</p>

<p>"We have people deriding us for placing a high emphasis on education."</p>

<p>Placing high emphasis = superiority? Would you please care to elaborate on your connection?</p>

<p>"Each individual is inherently unique. How can people, different by nature, fail to bring diversity to a campus?"</p>

<p>
[quote]

Diversity is what colleges often look for, but you advocate the use of test scores rather than social, economic, or political factors. Hence, your idea regarding the use of scores is itself discriminatory and beneficial to Asians who tend to score well.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Very interesting. I see no resurrection of stereotypes, and I see no usage of one stereotype to combat another. My idea regarding the use of scores is not discriminatory. It benefits anyone who has earned his score.</p>

<p>"Obviously, I belong to the "those people" group."</p>

<p>
[quote]

So do I.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Once again, I see you have taken a statement without its appropriate context. Let's see your original use of the phrase in post 139:</p>

<p>
[quote]

It is those people who truely believe that Asians are better or more deserving, even as other Asians are oppressed by not having the stats that negatively impacts the larger Asian community.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now, you're saying that you believe that Asians are better or more deserving.</p>

<p>"I asked you to demonstrate when and where (in context) I stated Asians are "better" or "more deserving." You gave zero quotations. Not a single one."</p>

<p>"Please. Unlike a mathematical proof, in which only one counterexample is needed to disprove the statement, discrimination exists as long as examples of it exist. It does not matter how many counterexamples there are."</p>

<p>
[quote]
Thus, your belief in Asian characteristics, including test scores, is itself a forwarding of the stereotype—even as it looks like a positive. Again, based on score that you call the most quantifiable.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? I find it interesting that a Black student with a 2400 who advocates using his test score as a strong factor buys into the Asian stereotype. Why isn't he buying into a "Black stereotype"?</p>

<p>"I do, however, believe that treating stereotypes as truth is a bad thing, and that such practices should not be tolerated. "</p>

<p>
[quote]

Yet, you do not recognize that you also reinforce the Asian stereotype by advocating for scores rather than a holistic view during the admissions process. Thus, since you use scores, you are making a judgment as to who deserves a spot in a college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let me ask you a question. What if I were Native American (I'm not, of course) and I had a 2400 (I don't, by the way)? Would I then be reinforcing the Asian stereotype by supporting the use of my score? Would I?</p>

<p>
[quote]

Funny, but denial is a powerful thing. I’ve given you several quotes, and why your idea of tests is contrary to what you assert, since it does not include socioeconomic considerations, which are affected by ethnicity.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, you've given several quotations, provided no contexts, and demonstrated no instances in which I have resurrected stereotypes, used one stereotype to counter another, and touted the superiority of Asians.</p>

<p>"There is certainly a way to distinguish applicants without using race, which is what demographics, social, historical, political, and economic backgrounds boil down to. In fact, you have already mentioned factors such as stats (includes grades, extracurriculars, and athletic ability), high school attended, and geographic residence, none of which depend on race."</p>

<p>
[quote]
Funny, but all of those things are considered because ethnicity is a characteristic that touches many of those categories, not the other way around. It is the treatment of minorities (including Asians) by the majority that leads to the inequity, especially if there are distinguishing characteristics evident in person, but not on paper. Yet you assert, that scores are the best way to craft a class, even as you say colleges can do what they want. I see no problem using those characteristic dependent on or influenced by ethnicity
when looking at an applicant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Have you forgotten that I directed that remark to you? Context, please.</p>

<p>"I do still propose that ethnicity be taken out altogether. There is no good reason to distinguish between two individuals based on race. There may be some good reasons to distinguish between two individuals based on socioeconomic status, but not race."</p>

<p>
[quote]

A contradiction exists between A and B. If you take out ethnicity, you largely negate the use of demographics, social, historical, political, and economic background.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Poverty knows no race. Geographic location knows no race. Race need not be a factor at all.</p>

<p>"Whenever the words truth and pattern are used to describe one entity in the same sentence, there’s a good chance that the author is employing a stereotype.
All I have to say is that there is too much oversimplification in this “truth.'"</p>

<p>
[quote]

That quote, without a citation, is itself a tactic that you employ to win an argument.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yet another instance in which you have taken my words grossly out of context. I directed that remark to epiphany, because she attempted to defend her use of a stereotype by saying it is true that there is a pattern...</p>

<p>If you had provided the context, it would have been much more obvious.</p>

<p>
[quote]

You made the assertion about Asians being punished for valuing education, I did not. You made the assertion that test scores are the most quantifiable and what should be used in crafting a class. You made the assertion that you did not care how colleges choose a class. Perhaps, you should back up YOUR assertions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please refer back to post 68.</p>

<p>TheMK99 made the following remark: "While I do not believe asians are screwed, if they are, it is through their own fault by embracing fierce competition" on the very first page. Some people truly believe that Asians should be punished for valuing education.</p>

<p>Test scores are the most quantifiable. I have stated that the SAT is a good benchmark for comparing students across different parts of the United States, in comparison to subjective factors like "leadership."</p>

<p>My not caring about how colleges choose a class is not an assertion; it is a belief.</p>

<p>I'm surprised that you took the time to dig up my previous posts. It would have been nice if you had provided contexts, but nah, it would have made you look bad.</p>

159

<p>Context with respect to the OP includes your responses to others.</p>

<p>Again, you have not proved that all Asians value education. You also, if the test scores are quantifiable, can see, using CB's stats, where Asians fall. Thus, your inability to recognize the shortcomings of your own arguement, including how you think that Asians are the only group to face discrimination and having that be okay, is not only ethnocentric (which goes against your own theory), but also self-serving.</p>

<p>You made those claims (including your posts to epiphany, and others). Yet, you can't see the big picture because you've chosen not to respond the elements of other people's arguements that jepordize you economic AA position. Great debate tactic...but, alas, not effective--especially since you only snipe at others because you cannot recognize what your statments depend on at the outset, nor can you follow your ideas to a logical conclusion. </p>

<p>I have no problem with your way of debating because it does not require much thought, confined as it it by only theorheticals, undisturbed by the reality of its application. Thus, you infer that others think a particular thing (like I do) based on inferences (which are responses to a question). That you assume or infer that Asians as a group in the admissions process is weakened when you advocate for the use of test scores as the 'best' way to craft a class.</p>

<p>You assume that the majority discriminates against you group, more so than others. Again, where is the proof of that (even if it was not directly addressed to me)? That idea is an assumtion based on a group affiliation--on race or ethnicity. That, according to you, does not happen, since you advocate for economic AA, rather than socioeconmic AA. Asians, per your arguement, cannot be discriminated against except for economic status. Thus, you arguement falls apart.</p>

<p>It has been fun to see how bent out of shape you get, when someone can be as stubborn as you and I are (I'm sure much to the displeasure of other CCers).</p>

<p>In any case, happy holidays.</p>

160

<p>IsleBoy,</p>

<p>This is my last post.</p>

<p>The following facts remain:</p>

<ol>
<li>You asserted that I</li>
</ol>

<p>a. resurrected old stereotypes and used some stereotypes to combat others.</p>

<p>b. touted the superiority of Asians and said that they were more deserving than others.</p>

<p>c. have stated that there is no difference between an East Asian and a Southeast Asian.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>When I asked you to come up with direct quotations and contexts to support your claims, you initially provided neither. When I asked you again, you still presented neither. Finally, you gave direct quotations without contexts, none of which corroborated your three claims.</p></li>
<li><p>In addition, you have attempted to formulate a connection between supporting test scores and buying into an Asian stereotype. You have failed to demonstrate such a connection.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I thank you for your repeated compliments on my discussion tactics. Yet, I must confess that they pale in comparison to your tactic of making strong assertions and then failing to produce a single piece of supporting evidence.</p>

<p>I have learned quite a few things about discussions from you. Thanks.</p>