So how much would being an "ORM" hurt in admissions?

<p>This has definitely been asked a million times already, and I've already read through the pinned "Race" thread but it doesn't entirely pertain to my question. If I'm an Asian-American, an ORM, does it really make it that much harder for me to get into an "elite" or "top" school like an Ivy League? How much more amazing do I need my statistics, EC's, and essays to be? I've heard the saying that being Asian is the equivalent of 120 points off your SAT score or something along those lines. What if I have a unique combination of say average / below average GPA + above average SATs + above average essays + below average EC's, how much would it then affect me if I weren't above average or even average in all 4 categories and I'm an ORM?</p>

<p>It doesn’t “hurt”, but it definitely isn’t an egg in your basket.</p>

<p>It definitely hurts. Your chances are at least 30% lower just from overt bias and assuming there’s no self-selection in the pool making Asian Americans with equal qualification as a white person not applying because of the higher bars of admission. In addition to the overt bias, you’re far more likely to be perceived as a mindless grinder with no originality, a test-taking drone if your scores are very good, less well-rounded than a white person with your qualifications would be especially if you are focusing on stem, and at least some adcoms will have an inner feeling that you’re one of THOSE Asians who steal admission and in the future from “deserving” whites. </p>

<p>^^ouch!^^ Harsh, but depends on the schools. </p>

<p>Except for the schools that have race-blind admissions (e.g. CA public schools), the more “over represented” ORMs are, the higher the bar will be set.</p>

<p>Meh. Problem with ORM is that they are all going for STEM majors, thus making the competition considerably more fierce. I actually think it would be easy for an ORM to distinguish himself/herself by doing something that’s not the norm. For example, instead of concentrating on math and science clubs, take up poetry slam and literature clubs. Instead of piano and violin, play the trumpet or oboe. Basically, adcoms will feel refreshed seeing an Asian who is not like every other Asian.</p>

<p>@FuzzyPeaches22 Is this really true?</p>

<p>@GMTplus7 So where exactly is the bar being set? Do ORM students have to be that much more amazing statistically and that much more interesting and unique and compelling with that much better and well-rounded extracurricular activities and essays? When “elite” colleges admit ORM students, what exactly do they find in the student that they feel is worthy enough of their institution?</p>

<p>So you are asking if because you are Asian, being below average in most categories will be beneficial, make you stand out? No. Being Asian will not be a factor because your stats (below average) are not going to get you in to the top schools…</p>

<p>Being Asian can certainly help you at many schools that are trying to attract minorities, looking for diversity in the student body. Asians are still only ~6% of the US population, and often less than 1% at some schools. Look for those schools if you want your race to matter in the process. My daughter is also Asian, and she didn’t want it to be a factor either way (good or bad) so she looked for schools where she would just blend in. She’s going to a school that has a very high international student body, and she’s just one more student. </p>

<p>@twoinanddone My main question wasn’t entirely pertaining to the last sentence of the OP, but with that question I was basically wondering if the race-biased process occurs exclusively when it comes down to the “this student or that student” process of admissions or in the entire admissions process itself. By “below average” I was speaking relatively because, as we know, ORMs are considered under a higher standard, so “below average” could actually be “average” or even “above average” for the elite institution but is definitely “below average” or just “average” in the pool of ORM students.</p>

<p>I had read about this issue a bit and so I did a little online research and came across an article, The Myth of the American Meritocracy, which was written by Ron Unz and published in the American Conservative magazine in November 2012. Below is the key section which specifically addresses OP’s question: </p>

<p>Asian-Americans as the “New Jews”</p>

<p>The overwhelming focus of Karabel’s book is on changes in Jewish undergraduate percentages at each university, and this is probably less due to his own ethnic heritage than because the data provides an extremely simple means of charting the ebb and flow of admissions policy: Jews were a high-performing group, whose numbers could only be restricted by major deviations from an objective meritocratic standard.</p>

<p>Obviously, anti-Jewish discrimination in admissions no longer exists at any of these institutions, but a roughly analogous situation may be found with a group whom Golden and others have sometimes labeled “The New Jews,” namely Asian-Americans. Since their strong academic performance is coupled with relatively little political power, they would be obvious candidates for discrimination in the harsh realpolitik of university admissions as documented by Karabel, and indeed he briefly raises the possibility of an anti-Asian admissions bias, before concluding that the elite universities are apparently correct in denying that it exists.</p>

<p>There certainly does seem considerable anecdotal evidence that many Asians perceive their chances of elite admission as being drastically reduced by their racial origins. For example, our national newspapers have revealed that students of part-Asian background have regularly attempted to conceal the non-white side of their ancestry when applying to Harvard and other elite universities out of concern it would greatly reduce their chances of admission. Indeed, widespread perceptions of racial discrimination are almost certainly the primary factor behind the huge growth in the number of students refusing to reveal their racial background at top universities, with the percentage of Harvard students classified as “race unknown” having risen from almost nothing to a regular 5–15 percent of all undergraduates over the last twenty years, with similar levels reached at other elite schools.</p>

<p>Such fears that checking the “Asian” box on an admissions application may lead to rejection are hardly unreasonable, given that studies have documented a large gap between the average test scores of whites and Asians successfully admitted to elite universities. Princeton sociologist Thomas J. Espenshade and his colleagues have demonstrated that among undergraduates at highly selective schools such as the Ivy League, white students have mean scores 310 points higher on the 1600 SAT scale than their black classmates, but Asian students average 140 points above whites. The former gap is an automatic consequence of officially acknowledged affirmative action policies, while the latter appears somewhat mysterious.</p>

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<p>It seems puzzling to me that this suggestion to Asian students is often posted on these forums, even though, for white and black students, there appears to be a common assumption that white and black students would prefer attending schools where their own race or ethnicity is numerous.</p>

<p>I don’t think it hurts that much, to me it is just a stereotype where ECs are often different for your average Asian-American kid than your average European-American kid. My son is part Asian, and his other Asian friends have the following in common:

  • play an instrument at a very high level, state at least
  • do not play team sports
  • do not work</p>

<p>Anecdotally, his non-Asian friends all:

  • play an instrument, but not at a state level
  • play team sports, at least two seasons per year
  • work at least in the summer and usually during the schoolyear too</p>

<p>If those stereotypes hold out, if you have parents who focus on their kids academics and niche ECs, and then you have parents who push their kids into sports and to have a job, I would say the latter has a better chance to get into college. Sports and working are big pluses, that could be predicted to correlate with European-Americans more than Asian-Americans.</p>

<p>There’s a reason why Jeremy Lin is so popular, his combination of talent and background is rare. You don’t see people writing articles about “wow, a black NBA player!” and how he is a role model for African-American youth.</p>

<p>It doesn’t matter in the end. Where you go to school does not make you this and that. Only you can do that. A lot of bitterness about being ORM is unnecessary.
However I like to correct one misconception that if you are ORM and major in non-STEM makes you stand out is utter nonsense.</p>

<p>@DrGoogle I’m just wondering for knowledge purposes whether being an ORM is truly as detrimental and hurtful as it seems to be</p>

<p>It doesn’t help. TBH</p>

<p>@DrGoogle Well it definitely doesn’t help but how devastating is it really</p>

<p>Not devastating either. I think that’s an exaggeration.what schools are you interested in and what are your stats? Maybe we can see if we can help you determine your chances here.</p>

<p>cut your chance by about 30-40%. </p>

<p>Hard numbers and not just anecdotes. Some research papers that quantify the admissions disparity among different racial groups:</p>

<p>Princeton admissions
<a href=“https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf”>https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

<p>Duke admissions
<a href=“http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/grades_4.0.pdf”>http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/grades_4.0.pdf&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

<p>The Duke data is especially interesting. Since the admitted Asian students had high rankings for “Essay” & “Personal Qualities” (i.e. leadership & ECs), it would seem to dispel the stereotype that they are bookish automatons. But you can see that they pretty much had to clear a higher bar for everything (not just SAT scores) to get admitted.</p>

<p>Ivy admissions
<a href=“http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/”>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/asians-large.jpg”>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/asians-large.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If you are going to turn this into an AA discussion then there are lots of those threads already. For all we know this person might not be interested in Duke.
None if my kids were interested in Duke either.</p>