<p>Oh Boy, the nukes have been launched.. </p>
<p>will someone bite and counter strike?</p>
<p>Over the years, I'm sure most people have noticed that I'm a little left of left... but I have also noticed, over the years, that many former students of mine who have enlisted (marines, navy, air force) have had very positive experiences, esp. those who've gone into the air force. (Not the marines!)</p>
<p>I also know people who have had positive experiences in the military (and some not so positive), but given where we are right now, I think it would be very foolish to join up today. I'm also surprised at any parent who would encourage it. If the OP gives it some time, perhaps Bush will re-institute the draft, and he can have his decision made for him.</p>
<p>Jack-
"my immediate thought is-- they must be really stupid, or possibly brain-dead"</p>
<p>Wow. I am really, really surprised by your above comment.</p>
<p>Not for one second would I nor others familiar with my children would assume they were brain-dead or stupid.</p>
<p>I don't know if you recall my kiddos, but they had many choices and opportunities for college and their respective careers. Son #2, MIT, CAlTech, Harvard, Penn, USNA, USAFA, USMA, Duke and is currently attending Princeton. Other son similar choices and is at USNA. Son #2 still has the drive/desire/want to serve after completing his undergrad. He struggled with his USMA/Princeton decision til the eleventh hour. And to this day still has some regrets.</p>
<p>Again, WOW. And not in a good way. Really shocked and disappointed.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>
It's always nice to hear from those who have first hand experience. My husband works closely with a variety of active duty military officers, and these people seem to have very interesting careers. There are many opportunities following military service, but I think the best options are available to those who have been officers. Whatever a student chooses, I still think it's best to complete college first. ROTC sounds like the best option.</p>
<p>ETA: Kat, I think you describe it best. The military people we've met through the years have always just struck me as the best this country has to offer. And given the demands they face, those we've met are as bright as any in the Boston/Cambridge area that we know -- and there are a lot of smart people around here! They are certainly not "brain dead." </p>
<p>I don't know where we'd all be without those who are willing to sacrifice so much for their country, and I'll be eternally grateful to them.</p>
<p>Disappointed that he has an opinion or that he doesn't agree with yours? I mean freedom of expression is one guaranteed right. Correct? I think there are likely other folks who hold Jack's opine but are reluctant to make it public.
Maybe it is disappointment that he expressed his opine publicly?</p>
<p>Jack, you really are missing some critical information in this area. Just two weeks ago I had the opportunity to spend a full day, plus dinner into the evening, with some of the top generals and the commanding officer of a special unit. These gentleman are nothing short of brilliant (and their CVs are incredible), and the work they do is cutting edge - the front line work of the war fighter is a small fraction of the overall body of work. Some of the work they do is simply beyond fascinating, and the learning opportunities both formal and informal are just staggering. All four branches of the service were represented in the unit, although I was exposed to more air force than the others. It's hard to imagine how anyone could be dissatisfied with a military career, assuming they made at least a reasonable effort to take advantage of their opportunities - and this has to be done in private industry as well as any position in the public sector. </p>
<p>If my daughter were to seriously explore the military, I would be thrilled, and support it 100%. Yes, there's the chance of being directly on the front lines of war, and of heartbreaking loss, but, those people in the World Trade Center - from the executives down to the support persons and mail room staffers probably never viewed their jobs as particularly dangerous, so....</p>
<p>To the OP, I do not have a lot of depth of experience specific to the air force, but I do know a number of career officers personally, and every single one of them is very happy.</p>
<p>Not that it doesn't agree with mine nor my family's opinion but rather that he would refer to those choosing this path as "stupid and brain-dead". Of course there is a right to express one's opinion but according to the Terms of Service of CC, name-calling as in "stupid or brain-dead" isn't supported.</p>
<p>One can make their opinion known, I was just disappointed that it was done in such a manner. And I would state again that those knowing our family, especially my kiddos' would be hesitant to label them stupid or brain-dead.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>latetoschool: I have no doubt that your top generals and commanding officers of special units are having a fine career. I can imagine being a career officer can be very fulfilling, which is just one more reason to encourage the OP to finish college first, reconsider his options at graduation, and if he still wants to join up, great. That's 2 more years down the road (and a different president); he'll go in as an officer; he can still have those limitless "learning opportunties, both formal and informal." Come to think of it, that's a great description of college, too. </p>
<p>As far as "missing some critical information," that's always a possibility. Still, I think it's irresponsible to actively encourage a young man or woman to drop out of college and join the military-- today (and while this president is still in office). My 2 cents, and I'm sticking with it.</p>
<p>katwkittens: Re-read my post. I did not call the OP, you, your kids, or anyone in particular "stupid or brain-dead." What I said was, when I hear of someone contemplating this--or signing up--in this day and age, given where our military presence is currently, my immediate thought is not what a wonderful patriot he or she is; on the contrary, my immediate thought is . . . he or she must be either stupid or brain-dead. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that is my immediate gut reaction. My reasons for saying that are not simply concerned with injury, trauma, or death, but also with [essentially] signing on the dotted line to support this current war. </p>
<p>Again, simply my opinion, which is just as valid as your own. I won't post on this thread again, so you can be left with unopposing views, but the OP did ask what we would do if our own children were contemplating this course of action. This would, in part, be my answer. I know I would definitely not be encouraging it; again, I think that's irresponsible. Instead, I would encourage him to finish school and re-visit that option upon graduation.</p>
<p>Speaking as a mom, I'd be concerned about you joining the military right now. </p>
<p>It just doesn't feel like the military is well supported, or, frankly, very well run right now. </p>
<p>Between the Pat Tillman debacle, the ongoing concerns about poor training, equipment, and endless rotations, the fact that no higher-up was held accountable for Abu Ghraib, and a Commander In Chief who has basically delegated his responsibilities to generals in the field (an odd reversal if ever there was one), well, I don't know, it unfortunately just doesn't feel like the military that I would have, until recently, strongly supported someone joining. </p>
<p>On the other hand, you will hear plenty of satisfied tales of military service.</p>
<p>Just go in with your eyes open I guess. It certainly is not a decision that you make based on a poll of strangers.</p>
<p>Jack, Sure everyone is entitled to their opinion but it goes a bit far to say that anyone who intends to join the military is "stupid or brain-dead". Have you met a lot of service people that gave you this impression or is it the fact that by joining the military one is putting their life at risk? </p>
<p>Two police officers were killed by a drug dealer in our city this summer, not an uncommon occurance in large cities in this day and age. Nine firemen were killed this summer while trying to put out a large factory fire.
So then does it also stand to reason that any person in a service oriented job that requires risk is also stupid and brain dead? </p>
<p>If your house is broken into or catches on fire, who will you call? I guess no one because they are all stupid people. What if our country is attacked. Would you expect it to be defended by only those " stupid or brain dead" people who were dumb enough to sign up to protect others and how well would that work out for us? </p>
<p>My S is in NROTC. He will be commissioned in 2009. One of his AP teachers described him as "scary smart" and another as "brilliant" on his recommendations. He has always wanted to serve in the military. I can guarantee he and his NROTC classmates are neither stupid nor brain dead.<br>
And yes, we support his choice and are in fact proud of his desire to serve others even if those people are not always appreciative and hurl insults. </p>
<p>This is his favorite quote:</p>
<p>"The nation that makes a great distinction between it's scholars and it's warriors will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools".
-Thucydides ( a Greek historian that I'm sure all stupid brain dead people are familiar with)</p>
<p>Jack, with all due respect, specific to this one issue, CC likely does not have the server space to accomodate the length of the post I would have to write in order to bridge the gap between your experiential knowledge and mine. Over the past several years I have been to ten or so military bases, and spent considerable time at each; I also visit various offices of the defense department on a somewhat frequent basis, AND, I work with former military persons in various positions in private industry. I interact with all service branches on a regular basis, and, I could not possibly be more impressed with the personnel - not only with their BRAINS, but also their ethics, and incredible personal presence. Most of them are working on GWOT, which will be a two-generation effort, and which is universally understood as not winnable: it can only be managed and contained. </p>
<p>There does not appear to be any lack of support, either, and whoever happens to be president is not really greatly impactive over the course of a 20-year career. Whoever is in congress IS impactive, however, because at the end of the day that is who decides appropriations.</p>
<p>I however DO agree that dropping out of college to join isn't a position I would advocate, and I especially would not consider military enlistment as an escape, or as an avenue for someone who simply selects it because they do not have a better idea. I think that military service should be a positive, active choice, and selected because the person truly wants to be in service, and take advantage of what the military can offer, as well as contribute to the nation's defense requirements - not unlike how a young person would/should approach a career opportunity in private industry.</p>
<p>Each person is different though and for the OP, if he is not prepared, ready, or interested in pursuing traditional education at this point, and if he does want to serve from a positive perspective, and if he can envision a valid career path, then, it's an excellent choice. The educational opportunities appear to be nearly unlimited, and, as far as the potential for danger - well - I never assumed our military personnel would, like, sit home and knit, did you?</p>
<p>To the OP: Weenie's last line is excellent advice - you really cannot consider an opinion poll of complete strangers. They're all going to be different and no real right or wrong, because at the end of the day it's a matter of what makes sense for you. Based on what you have posted, it seems as if staying in school and finishing your degree might be the very best option. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation because there are a few grey areas (public sector service, for example, or, private industry that supports GWOT). And there's no urgent need to make the decision right now, so, why not complete work on your degree and then see how you feel about the many options you will have?</p>
<p>LTS: Congratulations on all your "experiential knowledge." I know you and your family must be proud.</p>
<p>
[quote]
well - I never assumed our military personnel would, like, sit home and knit, did you?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, I (naively) never thought we'd be making some of the exact same mistakes we made 40+ years ago when we were in a similarly pointless and expensive war, also based on lies.</p>
<p>Packmom: Sigh. Please re-read what I initially wrote. Again, I'm sorry if my gut reaction offends you, but I'm not a supporter of this current war, nor of how this president is bleeding this country dry, day by day. To sign up today, or to encourage others to sign up, means that you do support it. That's fine. I just don't happen to agree with it, and for many reasons, I would never encourage someone-- in person or online-- to sign up today-- no matter how many Greek philosophers or historians you quote.</p>
<p>Jack, why do you have a problem with this? I have a career, just like most adults. My knowledge base runs wide and deep on this particular topic; I'm ignorant on nearly all others - we're all experts at the one or two things we do well, not so expert on most other things - what's the issue? I'm terrific at my career; am almost certainly nowhere near qualified to do whatever is your career; what's so wrong with that?</p>
<p>As to mistakes, out of respect for the OP we really shouldn't turn this into a politically thread, but, some of us still support and agree with the current administration's actions, decisions and policies. And at the end of the day, should he decide to enlist, current events aren't really going to be THE major factor in his decision.</p>
<p>
[quote]
. . . some of us still support and agree with the current administration's actions, decisions and policies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that's where you and I greatly differ.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And at the end of the day, should he decide to enlist, current events aren't really going to be THE major factor in his decision.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, perhaps they should be.</p>
<p>~~</p>
<p>Now, I really am done. I'm not gonna read this thread anymore, because I'll be compelled to answer.</p>
<p>Anyway, all the best to the OP. You asked for opinions; I offered mine. Hope it helped. My advice: Stay in school, graduate, revisit your options then.</p>
<p>jack, your political opinion is coming through loud and clear. When people make the kind of statements you've made, I assume it's through ignorance. You must not know anyone who is currently serving in the military -- that's the only way I can make sense of your comments.</p>
<p>This is the Parents Forum, which I always assumed was safe from political propaganda. Other debates about the war in Iraq or the current President typically take place in the Parent's cafe.</p>
<p>I think it's a mistake to try to defend the indefensible. Packmom's comments about firemen, police and the military are to the point. It was disrespectful of you to label anyone who wishes to serve in the military as "brain dead." I really think the best thing at this point is to just apologize, and not continue to attempt to validate your comments. JMHO.</p>
<p>"This is the Parents Forum, which I always assumed was safe from political propaganda"</p>
<p>Really? :)</p>
<p>Didn't read all the posts but I'm posting anyway. I was a Psychiatrist in the Air Force. My job was often to evaluate people who wanted out, so my view is biased. Still, at the core of your job is war. There is no room for doubting, discussing, disagreeing or changing your mind when you are in. To this day I can't believe I was expected to understand what that meant when I took an ROTC scholarship out of High School.</p>
<p>shrinkrap--Amen. Young people think they're invincible, they're often idealistic, they are full of good intentions......but in many ways they are not mature enough to make such a life decision.</p>
<p>Agreed, some of our best and brightest are in the military. That's why it's tragic to see their lives wasted in this war. It's one thing to sign up not being able to see into the future. It's another to sign up under the current situation. The OP should weigh his options carefully.</p>
<p>latetoschool: "...whoever happens to be president is not really greatly impactive over the course of a 20-year career." Sure, if you live long enough to HAVE a 20-year career. Tell that to the mothers and children of the 3,500 soldiers lost so far.</p>
<p>/Rant. Back to the discussion--college or military? :)</p>
<p>That would be 3742 soldiers lost.</p>