<p>It is a very important skill for the MCAT to notice/understand the differences between sentences that use words absolute words like “ALWAYS” and “NEVER” vs. ones that use more vanilla words like use “CAN” and “MAY”</p>
<p>For example:</p>
<p>True statement: Other than the real, real, bottom of the barrel schools (virtually no one on this forum is considering them) you CAN get into any medical school from any undergrad.</p>
<p>False statement: You will NEVER get into a good medical school unless you go to a good undergrad school.</p>
<p>True statement: Going to higher ranked undergrads offers SOME advantage to applicants.</p>
<p>False statement: Having a higher GPA is ALWAYS considered better regardless of where it came from.</p>
<p>False statement: MCAT and GPA are the ONLY things that matter for getting into med school.</p>
<p>Ture statement: Really bad MCAT and GPA CAN keep you from getting an interview regardless of everything else.</p>
<p>Life is short…enjoy each day and work to make it your best…in the end, you will know how thankful you are for what you have received and also your potential to give back in return… and maybe if you are fortunate…Grace. In the end…no one will care about your GPA…no one will care about where you went to med school…or even if you graduated at the top or bottom of your class. This is my fifth year as a leukemia survivor…and I am thankful for each day I don’t have to take chemo…thankful that I no longer have to receive LPs or take steroids…thankful that I am still able to volunteer at the cancer clinic where I was treated…thankful for having graduated on time last May…thankful that I was able to receive a number of interviews…thankful that I was accepted into medical school this past October 17…thankful for having found a job to work at this year as I get ready for school again in August, 2012…and thankful that I have the ability to live.</p>
<p>What I have observed is that this kind of thread will pop up once in a while when each generation of premeds get on board, no matter how hard some CCers have tried to put an end to this discussion.</p>
<p>Another observation is that, if a student ends up going the “top tier school” route, s/he may try to justify the “worth” of going there – After all, most (although not all) of these families which make this choice shell out a lot of money or forfeit the opportunity of getting a free ride elsewhere. OTOH, if a student, for one reason or another, does not go to such a school, s/he may genuinely believe that going to such a school does not really buy you much. Nobody wants to admit that he is a fool who makes a “wrong” decision.</p>
<p>My own gut feeling is as follows: (disclaimer: our family happens to belong to the former camp on the ground that we want to “do as much as we can when he is young and when we can still do something for him” even if it may not be completely “cost-effective” – Hey…you do pay more for, say, iphone or Droid or Galaxy than a no-name phone right?! You could argue some of the money goes to the “name” of the phone):</p>
<p>Both could be right. But whether it is a right choice or not for an individual depends on this individual’s and his/her family’s situation: financial, personal characteristics, etc.</p>
<p>I think you’re correct with this. And for those of us who still have to decide, we’re pondering, researching, pondering, reading, pondering…</p>
<p>Then we’re considering that “buy top students” word choice a page or two back… and thinking what’s wrong with that? It’s a way to get top students in a very similar fashion to athletic scholarships. How else does one improve their academic level?</p>
<p>The number one piece of advice EVERY single doctor I’ve talked with has been to save as much money as possible for undergrad while still going to a respectable school (that doesn’t mean Ivy or equivalent ). Accepting significant merit $$ from a school who has a decent Honors program and is getting noticed with their grads is pretty weighty compared to shelling out $$ for what? An advantage or not? But we’re still in that pondering stage and waiting to see what the actual balance on either side is.</p>
<p>So, these threads will continue and many of us will read them.</p>
<p>good luck creekland…its a hard decision…been there done that…we went the merit route and lucky for us the school S2 is at is ranked 30th for research…so if he stays there for med school (md/phd) he is in a good place.</p>
<p>Yes…UAB School of Medicine is ranked 30th for research…</p>
<p>The School of Medicine is ranked 30th in the research category and 10th in the primary care category. Four medical specialties at UAB are ranked in the top 20 nationally by the magazine: AIDS, 6th; geriatrics, 12th; rural medicine, 15th; and internal medicine 20th. </p>
<p>Notice though that none of the doctors are telling you to send your kid where they’ll have the best chances of getting a 4.0. My belief that there is SOME advantage to going to higher ranked schools is not in conflict with the advice you are receiving.</p>
<p>I like to think of this as analogous to those cancer drugs with horrible side effects that can prolong life by a couple months. In other words, there is no question that the drug helps you live longer, but is that longer life worth it? Similarly, there is no question that going to a more prestigious school offers SOME advantage, but is that advantage worth it? I’m certainly not going to answer that for anyone because it’s a very personal, financially based decision. There are some “live longer at all costs (go to higher ranked school at all costs)” folks and then there are some “I don’t want to live longer if I’m in pain all the time (I don’t want to go to a higher ranked school if I’m going to be living under a financial burden for the next several decades) folks.” Neither of these folks are right or wrong, but they are both acknowledging there is some advantage to the higher ranked school.</p>
<p>As you said, you are at the “pondering stage” of trying to figure out what’s worth it and what’s not. Unfortunately, I don’t think you’ll be able to answer that until you have aid packages in front of you to compare. Regardless of whether or not you find the advantages of more prestigious schools to be worth it, you have to acknowledge that the advantage is there.</p>
<p>Mcat2,
I know that I will never stop these discussions, but I can dream can’t I?</p>
<p>Moderator Note: If you have a problem with a post, use the Report Problem Post button. Stay on the topic of the current thread, and if you can’t answer in a courteous manner, then don’t post. Further bickering and responses to bickering, will result in warnings and TOs.</p>
<p>“I like to think of this as analogous to those cancer drugs with horrible side effects that can prolong life by a couple months. In other words, there is no question that the drug helps you live longer, but is that longer life worth it?”
Sorry-but, if you are using this statement as an analogy for a student’s future school selection–as a cancer survivor and as a future physician it just doesn’t make any sense the way it is written for selecting a school-please explain.</p>
<p>I am sorry if my post was at all offensive, it was not meant to be, I was just trying to use an example I thought had some similarities and was one that, being in medical school, is something we have talked about a lot recently. I guess it might make sense if I make the disease it more vague since there is nothing about cancer specifically that is relevant to my analogy.</p>
<p>Imagine a scenario where a person is diagnosed with a terminal illness. The doctor tells them that 95% of people with this diagnosis die in 6 months but the only symptoms before death will be pain that is easily controlled with pain meds, and they will be able to live a completely normal life for 6 months before dying suddenly. When asked if there is any treatment, the doctor says that there is a drug that has been proven to change the 95% mortality from 6 months to 12 months, doubling your lifespan, however, you can’t take any pain meds while on this life extending drug so you will be in constant excruciating pain. In addition, the drug’s side effects are intense nausea, diarrhea, shortness of breath and chest pain such that you’ll barely be able to walk from the bedroom to the bathroom, but, you’ll double the remainder of your life.</p>
<p>Some people would say “I want the drug. I want to live as long as possible, I don’t care what my life is like,” while some people would say “I don’t want that drug. I’d rather have an enjoyable 6 months than a miserable year.” Neither response is right or wrong. This is a personal choice based on personal beliefs. No one will say is that the drug doesn’t give you a longer life - that is a fact.</p>
<p>Going to higher ranked schools gives some advantage. That is a fact. Is that fact worth suffering huge amounts of debt? That I can’t answer because that is a personal choice based on financial beliefs/personal preferences of what’s important. Some people think going to a higher ranked school is so important that it doesn’t matter what you have to sacrifice to get there while others do not.</p>
<p>Again, I apologize if anyone finds this offensive, but I think it does illustrate the supposed conflict between the idea that higher ranked schools do offer an advantage but that the advantage may not be big enough to justify tens of thousands of dollars of debt.</p>
Just want to point out that, for some families who are, say, the “bottom 50 or 60 percents”, going to a selected few higher ranked schools will not result in huge amounts of debt. They may have little or even zero debt, depending on the family’s financial situation and which higher ranked school s/he attends.</p>
<p>Granted, those coming from the bottom 50 or 60 percents have a harder time to compete against the top 40 percents, considering how important ECs (and the school district) are for getting into these few schools unless you have a hook.</p>
<p>On the other end of income/assets level, say, among the top 5 or 10 percents, they may afford it easily. They may choose this way to pass down their inheritance in advance. Heck, some of these families may even pay for both the undergraduate school and the graduate/professional school. Whether it is worth it or not is each family’s judgement.</p>
<p>The families which may not benefit from this are those in the upper middle, between the 60 percents to the 80 percents, or sending their kid to a school that is higher ranked but is not need-based. For these families, the concern raised by the above post is very real.</p>
<p>^^Excellent point, mcat2. Attending an Ivy is less expensive than an UC at instate prices for most California families, even for those in the low six-figure income range. The top 1% can easily pay full freight, as can most of the top 5%.</p>
<p>I still would like to point out that the most important is a match of UG to student personality and wide range if interests. Feeling that you do not belong there, will make it harder to achieve. Misery does not produce positive results. Do not overlook the fact, that 4 years of life, especially that we are talking about 18 - 22 years olds is crucial to spend at the place that you belong not at the place that will make you depressed. Also, keep in mind that lots of ranking depends on research money. Many high ranking places will have faculty that focused on their own research much more than students with many classes run by TA’s. You do not want this. Look closer at each place, go deeper than research on internet. Frankly, we did not look at ranking at all, did not listen to anybody and did not consider what Med. School would like when D. was considering her UG. She visited a lot, talked to current students a lot, stayed overnight. And at the end she got lucky choosing her perfect UG (there is some element of luck). Why we consider her UG perfect? Because, D. was happy there and because she had great choices of Med. Schools at the end. Well, it was also tuition free (little bonus).</p>
<p>Thanks all. We’ll see what choices my guy has once all the letters are in. He selected places he wouldn’t mind attending when he applied. Those he didn’t care for, he didn’t apply to. Why waste the time and $$?</p>
<p>Then we also eliminated all without merit aid (Ivies and Franklin & Marshall were the only ones cut on this I believe). While we qualify for significant need based aid right now (oldest is a sophomore in college, we know our EFC), it’s solely due to the economy. We own our own Engineering business (the half that doesn’t teach). Rather than going on need based aid, we prefer to remain hopeful that the economy will improve and our income will return to what used to be normal. If we accept only need based aid, all the extra will go to colleges and not be there to replace retirement savings, etc. If we go with merit aid, then the only difference will be the increase. It’s also more likely we could assist with med school IF it’s in his future.</p>
<p>If we knew we were staying with a very low EFC, his applications could have been different, but we prefer to try to get back to where we were.</p>
<p>One last consideration is that youngest will not likely have the high scores middle son has. Their gifts are in different academic areas. Therefore, we need to be prepared to pay more for his undergrad education.</p>
<p>Middle son has not expressed dismay at his options. We even told him he could apply to Yale if he truly wanted to, but in the end, he chose not to based upon his research into the school and comparing it with his other choices. I believe the final straw was the “area of town” Yale was located in (not so nice) and not anything academic. He enjoyed places where he felt “safer” off campus as well as on. One can agree or disagree with him about that, but it was his final decision, not ours. (I suppose it’s kind of like how we told him we’d prefer east of the Mississippi, but then allowed him to apply to two schools west of it anyway since he wanted to).</p>
<p>*One last consideration is that youngest will not likely have the high scores middle son has. Their gifts are in different academic areas. Therefore, we need to be prepared to pay more for his undergrad education.
*</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>I hear you…and younger son may surprise you.</p>
<p>When our older son was in high school, we had the same thought…younger son probably won’t test well, so we’ll have to pay a lot more for him. Well, younger son surprised us in the end. Sal of his class and high test scores. Got nearly as much merit as older bro.</p>
<p>So, there may be a surprise for you later…some boys are a little slower grade and testing-wise in the younger years. For younger son, we helped him overcome a “slow reading” issue…he was pronouncing words in his head, which slowed down his reading. Once we taught him to just “absorb” words as he skimmed along, his reading pace picked up. </p>
<p>That said, you still have to prepare as if younger son won’t test as well…</p>
<p>Back to the original topic of this post… I really would want to believe that it matters much where the student gets his undergrad. Where my son goes to school, academics are brutal and almost bloodbath. You have to work really hard just to get a B. And believe me, they work so hard. I’ve heard from my son how some really good kids are weeded out by the weeder courses. Im sure those kids would have gotten 4.0 easily on other schools.</p>
<p>BlueDevilMike once suggested it may be better to eliminate GPA altogether, and replace it with a standardize test (maybe not the kind like MCAT, need to make it more like an “achievement test”.) Then there is no such a question. Maybe he has some point.</p>
<p>Alternatively, we may ask all students to take some standardized ACHIEVEMENT tests, and then use the average score of all test takers from each school to calibrate the GPA of each school.</p>
<p>We can not use SAT or even MCAT to serve this purpose, as many believe they may be biased.</p>
<p>Am I dreaming?!</p>
<p>My gut feeling about this is that it has the same effect of the ranking in the high school. It could give some boost to the “good” students but also could hurt the “bad” students if you go to a competitive high school. Also, if your goal is to get into a very top college rather than a middler, going to a competitive high school (and get a good rank there) could help, as top colleges rarely recruit many students from non-top high schools. If you only want to go to a public university, remember that, in many states, there are so called top 10 percents rule. But remember though the reason to have some of these rules may not be to protect you!</p>
). Accepting significant merit $$ from a school who has a decent Honors program and is getting noticed with their grads is pretty weighty compared to shelling out $$ for what? An advantage or not? But we’re still in that pondering stage and waiting to see what the actual balance on either side is.</p>