So, I've been meaning to ask this for awhile...

Graduate School
41

<p>Dallas,</p>

<p>I am not against people on here telling folks to aim higher. There is nothing wrong with that and I think that applicants who are strong should apply to strong programs. I totally agree with you there.
I just find it suspicious when someone writes something like "People pay Ivy league money for their education fro a reason, namely to find a job after school." The job market in the US isn't so rigorous that you need an Ivy league education to get somewhere. Will a degree from Harvard help you in landing a good job? You bet it will. But that doesn't mean that you can't land very good employment with a degree from a lesser university. There is a very real tendency on this board to look at the job market as a Great Depression Era style black hole, where only the most qualified can land good jobs. This is simply untrue.</p>

<p>There also seems to be a tendency on this board for Ivy leaguers to come on here and defend, tooth and nail, their decision to pay 180K for an undergrad from Princeton. Although there is nothing wrong with going to an Ivy league for grad or undergrad, I personally am going to be very happy when I graduate, debt free, from both undergrad and graduate school.</p>

42

<p>sphere,</p>

<p>i have no doubt that people w/ 4.0 from a lower tier school have potential. but it is unclear to me how much potential they show me by having a 4.0 from a less competitive program. and that benefit of doubt tends to be lost when a person with a lower GPA but from much competitive environment. if you really have these quality, why dont you display them in an environment that you talents as well as other quality can be fully judged. </p>

<p>jm,</p>

<p>well, Mr. Bush would be very happy to hear that. he probably wouldnt get in as much trouble in the midterm election if the job market is as rosy as you pictured. i'm sorry to say but even phd's have hard time finding jobs. i tried to find a job once, and end up deciding to go to grad school, and i grad from so-call top tier university...</p>

43

<p>I'm actually glad my comments have stimulated some discussion. My motivation for coming to this board in the first place was to see what kind of misinformation about grad admissions was floating around and to see if there was anything I could do to demystify the process and allay some fears. </p>

<p>So I will reiterate some points, and address some concerns.</p>

<p>By no means does any student have to go to HYPS (etc.) to get into graduate school. Good grief, no.</p>

<p>It is part of my job to know what goes on in undergraduate programs in my field. (It's a relatively small field, so this is possible.) There are some second and third tier schools that are able to prepare students extremely well for graduate study in my field, and there are some that are not able to do so. Fair or not, students from very weak programs will indeed be handicapped in the graduate admissions process. (Especially if we've had a series of disappointments from students from that school.)</p>

<p>When we "find" a gem of a second or third-tier undergraduate program, we are thrilled, and start to cultivate a relationship with the faculty there, so that they send more applicants our way. We currently have several grad students from second- and third-tier schools who are doing very well in our program, and we admitted many this year. Seeking out "hidden gems" is part of how we became such a vibrant program. </p>

<p>We also have students from top LACs in our program. They're often easy to admit, because they're almost always well-prepared. But we certainly don't admit them all, or admit them merely because they went to a top LAC. I should add, however, that their GPAs are sometimes lower, and their GREs are usually higher than second- and third-tier applicants. We often get letters of rec that go out of their way to explain the lack of grade inflation in their departments. (They don't need to -- we already know.) </p>

<p>We usually have a smaller proportion of applicants from flagship state universities because there are only a few of these type of schools that have departments in our field. We know well the ones that do, and have good relationships with faculty there, so they send us their top students.</p>

<p>I'd also like to EMPHASIZE that graduate admissions, in my experience, is not merely a numbers game. It's the "whole package" that counts. Now, great GREs are going to make an applicant a good candidate for university-wide awards, because competition is across every department, so that is a measure that those committees can agree upon. So we are only going to nominate candidates with stellar GREs for these top awards. But assistantships are awarded by department, so we can offer those to whichever students we choose by the "whole package" method.</p>

<p>And to address sphere718's thought that "hands on experience outside of academia" was a factor: While it is in many disciplines, it is not in mine. When I mentioned that a student with a 4.0 from a lousy program was denied admission, it was because said student did nothing but take courses in my field, which I knew to be mere overviews. This student's SOP revealed a serious lack of focus and preparation, and the writing sample was also very weak (grammatically and syntactically correct, but no higher-level critical thinking). So that 4.0 told us that this student can memorize a lot of data and regurgitate it on an exam, and the SOP and the WS told us that this student has no familiarity with method or theory, has no idea what she wants to study as a specialization, and does not have strong potential for success in our program. </p>

<p>Finally, dallas808 and 14ofspades asked about the "prestige factor" in faculty hiring. I can only speak to my field on that. There are fewer than 20 great PhD programs in my discipline. Some are at HYPS, some are at state schools, some are at private universities. Each program has its subfield strengths. Hiring in my discipline is by subfield, so candidates from the programs with strengths in their subfield will usually be the strongest candidates. But that's how (and why) those scholars chose their PhD programs in the first place.</p>

44

<p>

In my two years on CC, I don't think I've ever seen someone seriously try to defend that assertation. Nobody's trying to say that you have to go to Top Undergrad U in order to get a job, or in order to get into grad school -- just that it makes life easier if you do.</p>

45

<p>Professor X, how does your department deal with graduate applicants from schools about which you may know nothing or too little, e.g., schools from some non-English speaking countries?</p>

46

<p>Mollie,</p>

<p>Obviously few (or none at all) posters come on here saying that you need a HYSPM degree to get a job after you graduate. I was saying that, but was rather trying to get a point accross that there is a tendency on CC to insist that without such degrees, finding a good job will be significantly harder. In reality, I am annoyed a particular strata of the CC posting population that seems to frown on anyone who wants to get a grad degree from a school that isn't Top Ten in the nation.</p>

<p>Does getting a degree from Yale or princeton help? Heck yeah, it does. if it didnt, people wouldnt be banging on the doors of such insititutions to get in. However, when eastcoastbound says "I got a degree at an Ivy and the job market was cruel to me!" that really means nothing. He may have graduated in an area with little job opportunities, or maybe he simply wasn't qualified enough for the type of job he wanted, regardless of the fact that he did his undergrad at an Ivy. The job market in the US is not so bad that only those educated at world famous insititutions get somewhere.</p>

47

<p>joaoabreu,</p>

<p>We have specialists in the Graduate School who determine whether international applicants have met basic requirements (conversion of grades to GPA, comparison of degrees to U.S. bachelors, etc.).</p>

<p>Beyond that, we must look very closely at international applicants from programs with which we are not familiar. In these cases, letters of recommendation, writing samples and statements of purpose usually figure heavily. </p>

<p>Usually, however, we can gain some familiarity with the program in question by looking up the faculty. Many of us attend international conferences in our field, and know our colleagues on a global level.</p>

48

<p>Professor X, thank you a lot for the reply and the explanation. And congratulations for the brilliant idea of taking part in this forum. My life would have been a lot better if I could have found advices like yours when I was an undergraduate...</p>

49

<p>Prof X</p>

<p>i'm actually a (very young) member of faculty in a non-US university. i've had some of my students apply to the US for grad school this year. our school's department is very embryonic - and i was wondering how my students would be assessed since the adcoms would have no previous benchmarks or experience with other students to compare to.</p>

<p>what u say here seems to clear things a lot. very cool.</p>

50

<p>Prof X,</p>

<p>Despite the fact that I can be a big time pain in the neck, I would aos like to commend you on your solid help on this forum. You provide extremely valuable and needed information for many of us.</p>

51

<p>All prof x is saying is that, to grad admissions, it does matter where one goes for undergrad, and the quality of the program. This should not be news. It is not the deciding factor (in most cases anyway), but it is one.</p>

52

<p>To offer a slightly different perspective, I sit on a hiring board for a sector of the state government. The jobs we are looking to fill generally pay in the $45-70K range, not bad for state work. </p>

<p>When reviewing applicants, experience comes first, personal characteristics second, interview vibe third, and the school they graduated from a distant fourth. </p>

<p>I would say that a degree from a prestigious university may initially open more doors. From there, though, it is all about building your professional resume and making solid professional connections.</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
well, Mr. Bush would be very happy to hear that. he probably wouldnt get in as much trouble in the midterm election if the job market is as rosy as you pictured. i'm sorry to say but even phd's have hard time finding jobs. i tried to find a job once, and end up deciding to go to grad school, and i grad from so-call top tier university...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>PhDs have a hard time finding a job for very different reasons than the average BA does. PhDs suffer an oversaturated market with high supply and low demand. If they try to leave that market, they're often considered "overqualified" for jobs. Fair? No. Reality? Probably.</p>

<p>There are tons and tons of jobs that go unfilled in this economy. They are just not glamorous or highly coveted like Fortune 500, federal government, and academia are on this board. Out of all my friends in undergrad, not one of them remains unemployed. Sure, not all of them are at jobs that they love and want to spend the rest of their careers at, but there are jobs out there even for the Cal State grads of the world.</p>

<p>I mean, seriously guys, unemployment in the US is pretty low right now, and largely limited to frictional unemployment.</p>

54

<p>Hey jmleadpipe, </p>

<p>I chose Concordia over McGill as well. Same reasons, different discipline (English Lit). McGill is dead when it comes to the humanities, but if I were into science it would be a no-brainer.....I was just reading through this thread, and thought I'd say hi to a fellow Concordian....</p>

55

<p>Hey Rory!</p>

<p>English Lit. at Concordia is a great, great program. I have taken two electives in english lit so far, one with JP Fiorentino and another with Sarah O'leary. I had a blast in both. It's good to know there are some fellow Concordians on this board!</p>

56

<p>joaoabreu and jmleadpipe and others,
I'm just glad that I was of some help.</p>

<p>14ofspades,
Also, thanks. And in answer to your question, for applicants from a new or previously unknown (to us) program, the comments I made to joaoabreu would also apply. SOPs, letters, and writing samples would figure heavily. We'd be looking for evidence of solid preparation in the field of intended specialization, awareness of issues in the discipline, facility with method and theory, and ability to articulate and sustain a complex scholarly argument. We'd also look up the program's faculty. Bottom line: Coming from a new program would not hurt an applicant, as long as evidence of solid preparation is there.</p>