So you want to go to Princeton...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>It has been a great while since I've visited College Confidential. But I clearly recall those stressful high school days of applying to the top colleges - getting perfect SAT scores, doing well on olympiads, getting involved in a wide array of extracurriculars, etc. Let me tell you that those were the best days of my life, and also my proudest moments, as I, like many of you, was also a high-achieving high school student.</p>

<p>I understand what you're going through, and having frequently visited the CC board over the past 7 or so years (I recently graduated from Princeton), I've read numerous posts from heartbreaking rejections to uplifting condolences to utter euphoria upon word of acceptances. Most OP's and alums tell you to enjoy the best of your high school days, to pursue what interests you, that no matter where you end up it really doesn't matter in the end as you will end up at the best college that suits you most.</p>

<p>But deep down inside, we all know, at least us high-achieving, perfect SAT score, National Merit, math/science Olympiad semifinalists, understand that this is NOT true. They are merely words of encouragement that evaporate when we encounter the job market after college. Truth be told, the name of your college DOES matter, and that this IS a critical moment of your life that may open up doors of opportunities in the future or shut thousands of them should you be rejected.</p>

<p>My point here is, the fact that most of you obsess about getting into the best colleges HYPSM, your ambitions/hopes/dreams is absolutely warranted. The job market out there is tough, and coming from one of the top schools will open so many more doors than you can imagine. Attending a prestigious Princeton or Harvard will give you so many more opportunities than otherwise. Most hate to face this truth, but I cannot tell you how important it is for you to attend a top university. It will open doors beyond your wildest imaginations, endow you with a name on your resume that you can keep for the rest of your life, and give to almost a free access to a $100K+ salary job on Wall Street should you seek it.</p>

<p>Life is tough, and no one said it'd be easy - and I'm giving you the raw facts, whether you like to hear it or not. If you don't get into a top university now, then sure, you can always attend a top graduate school to get your foot in the door. But who wants to wait four years later and face the same process again, and another chance to be rejected? For the Class of 2016, the top students will get in and, granted, will be the next leaders of our generation. The weak will be rejected, face many more obstacles in the future, and will have to work many times harder to secure a job in this market - the opportunity will be there, but be prepared to put in 100x more work than your fellow classmates at the Top 5 US News colleges.</p>

<p>The time is now. Let the competition begin - and best of luck to everyone.</p>

2

<p>

</p>

<p>Oh, really? Free access to an Investment Banking job? Is that so? (I hope you are referring to IBD, PE, or HF when you’re talking about ‘100k+ Wall Street’ job, not Operations department at Goldman Sachs)</p>

<p>You make it sound like banks on the street would hand out 100k IBD or S&T jobs like they hand out Halloween candies to second grade kids, just because you go to Princeton or Harvard. This is laughable. IBD, S&T, PE, and HF jobs are insanely competitive to get, and these are probably only entry-level finance jobs that would give you 100k starting out. Even coming from Princeton/ Harvard, you’d better have 3.7+ GPA (maybe lower GPA allowed if you major in math/ hard sciences/ engineering), strong/ banking-related summer internship experiences, strong interviewing skills, and network/ strive like crazy to score these types of jobs.</p>

<p>Check out the Princeton graduation employment survey, which reflect 98% of Princeton graduates who took this ‘mandatory’ survey.</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> University - Career Services - Online Publication](<a href=“http://ocsweb.princeton.edu/pro-flip/Main.php?MagID=1&MagNo=1]Princeton”>http://ocsweb.princeton.edu/pro-flip/Main.php?MagID=1&MagNo=1)</p>

<p>You will see that among 2010 Princeton graduates, 24% of all graduates graduated unemployed. UNEMPLOYED. And, 10% of Princeton graduates are working ‘internships’, not even as full time employees. And, 20% of all Princeton graduates are heading directly to graduate school. Do you think that these kids would still go directly to graduate school, if those 100K Wall Street jobs were available to them after college? Try to ask these folks why they didn’t take those 100k+ Wall Street jobs that get handed out like they hand out candies, as you claim. And, chances are, these Princeton grads would think you’re a clown.</p>

<p>In this economy, many graduates from Ivies have a tough time getting a JOB. If you major in a non-marketable major like many of Princeton students do (such as Political Science, History, English, Literature, Biology, or even Econ), you will have a rough time in the job market. Truth is, a student who majors in accounting, nursing, computer science, engineering, or pharmacy at second or even third tier colleges may have better job opportunities than many of Princeton grads.</p>

<p>I went to a different Ivy for undergrad, and graduated recently. Despite having high GPA + Econ degree, I didn’t get good offers from Ibanks or consulting firms. I got some offers from no-name shops doing some mid-office, or back-office type of roles for 45-50k/ year, but I didn’t take those jobs because these jobs are dead-ends, so I decided to attend law school. (top 6 law school) I also know a ton of my classmates, from my Ivy undergrad, who are either unemployed or working dead-end jobs. (One guy works as an ‘administrative assistant’ at a company that makes plastic bags. Heck, I even know a guy who is working at Starbucks)</p>

<p>Among my law school classmates (I haven’t started law school yet, taking a gap year, but went to orientation and met a bunch of my future classmates), there were quite a few people like me who decided to go to law school after suffering from lack of decent job options, even after going through Ivy undergrad. I met over 6 Harvard grads that were coming to my law school, and they all told me that had they gotten an I-banking offer, there is no way in hell they would attend law school in the first place.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Some of my friends who went to no-name state schools and majored in computer science are enjoying their 70k-90k/year jobs. I even know plenty of people from my high school who went to complete ‘no-name’ state schools, not even state flagship, and scored 60k audit jobs at Big4 accounting. Let me tell you, as of now, I’d bet there are many Ivy grads out there who would kill to get those kind of jobs. </p>

<p>Why am I responding to your thread? It is because I believe the information you hand out is incorrect. Princeton students are “Leaders of our generation?” Are you kidding? In the real world, where you went to college doesn’t matter nearly as much as you are making it out to be. Success is, by large, a function of individual merits rather than the name on your diploma. Also, outside of finance/ consulting, employers don’t really care about the prestige of your college. I actually think that going to a good State University and majoring in accounting, computer science, engineering, or pharmacy give you better, safer career options, compared to majoring in general Liberal Arts at Princeton/ Harvard.</p>

3

<p>Thanks Lazykid…Fermats post was OBNOXIOUS! As a Princeton parent and alum, I was embarrassed.</p>

4

<p>Great post! I agree 100% that because you have spent 4 years of you life in a dorm somewhere in the north east you are now qualified to rule the world.</p>

5

<p>“In the real world, where you went to college doesn’t matter nearly as much as you are making it out to be. Success is, by large, a function of individual merits rather than the name on your diploma. Also, outside of finance/ consulting, employers don’t really care about the prestige of your college. I actually think that going to a good State University and majoring in accounting, computer science, engineering, or pharmacy give you better, safer career options, compared to majoring in general Liberal Arts at Princeton/ Harvard.”</p>

<p>In that case, why didn’t you go to a state school? You are fooling only yourself by saying this. </p>

<p>“I went to a different Ivy for undergrad, and graduated recently. Despite having high GPA + Econ degree, I didn’t get good offers from Ibanks or consulting firms. I got some offers from no-name shops doing some mid-office, or back-office type of roles for 45-50k/ year, but I didn’t take those jobs because these jobs are dead-ends, so I decided to attend law school.”</p>

<p>Yes, because you clearly did not attend HYPS. If you went to a different Ivy for undergrad, you did not attend a top 5 school. Like I said, since you did not attend a top 5 school, you had a lot of doors shut on you - therefore, you must attend a top graduate school to “rebrand” yourself, because you clearly did not get into HYPS. You only reaffirmed my argument, so I don’t quite see your point.</p>

<p>Applicants, I am stating that if you get into a top 5 school, such as Princeton or Harvard (not Cornell like the OP probably attended above), you will have many more doors open to you. And if you know how to leverage the hell out of your prestigious diploma (which I certainly do), then the opportunities are certainly yours to take. The next few months of applications are highly critical, so don’t discount them - getting into a top school will help you tremendously in your career endeavors, almost an automatic job at times, if you understand how to market and leverage yourself. Thank you.</p>

6

<p>It’s good to aim for the ivy league, but I don’t think my future will disappear just because some people in a committee who never met me don’t like how I look on paper.</p>

7

<p>No, absolutely not. I apologize if I made it come out that way. But you will certainly face a much higher hurdle than your Princeton peers - anyone who disagrees with that is only fooling themselves.</p>

8

<p>

</p>

<p>When I was in high school, I didn’t know what career path I wanted to go in. If I had known that, for example, I wanted to go into a career in accounting or pharmacy, for example, I would have gone to a State school instead, because Ivies don’t even offer majors in those areas.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Dude, you are sure you went to Princeton? Such a big reading comp fail… I specifically provided you a link to Princeton’s career statistics, and I am sorry, many of your classmates didn’t do too hot in the job market either. Look at the objective data.</p>

<p>And, whether or not I went to Princeton UG is irrelevant here. The point is going to a X,Y,Z college won’t automatically get you a sick job, as you apparently claim. Employers aren’t dumb. They take everything into account, when making hiring decisions. They look at your whole package. And, just having Princeton or Harvard UG name on your resume isn’t even close to sealing the deal when it comes to IBD or S&T jobs.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, 25% of your fellow Princeton grad graduated unemployed. And, 10% of them are working ‘internships’, not even full time jobs. Try to ask these people why they couldn’t get those 100k Wall Street jobs. </p>

<p>I think it is dangerous to spread out information or false perception such as your point, re: “If you get into Princeton, you are set for your life. You will get 100k jobs automatically and become leaders of our generation.” </p>

<p>Edit: I actually doubt you went to Princeton. I am convinced you may be a high school student.</p>

9

<p>Well, I clearly did get a sick job without having to try too hard. I had a 3.3+ at Princeton, majored in ORFE, and am making close to 150K a year as a trader.</p>

<p>Providing examples like “Oh I know so and so who went to state school who got a job at a big 4 accounting firm” is NOT a good argument, as you should well know yourself, Mr. Lawyer.</p>

<p>And the fact that 25% are unemployed does not mean anything. I guarantee you that if they wanted to be employed, they could have. Plenty of my friends are taking a year off to travel, participate in a study-abroad program, etc. etc. </p>

<p>This is a much better reflection of my argument:</p>

<p>[Colleges</a> That Bring the Highest Paycheck 2011 | Best Careers Opportunities](<a href=“http://www.bestcareersopportunities.com/2011/07/colleges-that-bring-the-highest-paycheck-2011.html]Colleges”>http://www.bestcareersopportunities.com/2011/07/colleges-that-bring-the-highest-paycheck-2011.html)</p>

<p>Thank you, and good luck to all the applicants!</p>

10

<p>

</p>

<p>Ok, now you are telling me that people from Princeton can take a ‘year off’ after graduating and pursue travel, etc, and suddenly come back and demand, successfully, that banks hand out those 100k Wall Street jobs that you speak of? For high paying finance jobs (banking), most people get offers even before senior year college through summer internship. And, majority of others get offers via full time recruiting on campus during senior year fall semester. Hence, if you count as ‘unemployed’ by the time of graduation, it is HIGHLY unlikely that you will be working in banking-type of roles after college.</p>

<p>In addition, the survey indicates that 24% of graduates who are SEEKING employment are still unemployed. Yes, you can just get a job with a Princeton degree, but to get 100k job automatically? Just take a look at 10% of Princeton kids who are working as ‘interns’, not even as full time employees, after graduating. Surely, they couldn’t ‘automatically’ get those 100k finance jobs. And, you shouldn’t assume that nearly a quarter of your classmates are just ‘taking a year off’ after college to travel to random places or mess around. Chances are great that these kids WANTED to get good jobs and get their careers started, but couldn’t. </p>

<p>Learn to interpret raw data within proper context.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Funny, that very survey you referred to reads:</p>

<p>“Princeton-
Mid-career median salary: $130,000
Starting median salary: $56,900”</p>

<p>This looks much different from your initial preposition that employers would hand out those 100k+ banking or trading jobs like candies to Princeton or Harvard grads. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I am glad things worked out nicely for you. 150k right after college is freakin awesome. However, you should note that for jobs in trading, employers seek those with quantitative skill-set and prefer engineering/ stats/ math students. I am not sure if humanities/ liberal arts majors at Princeton with 3.3-3.4 GPA can count on getting such offers. The fact that you majored in engineering (and one that is specifically focused on finance) would have given you advantage for recruiting for trading. For IBD, they expect that you have 3.7+ GPA and banking-related internships on your resume. Just attending Princeton and being an average to middling student, without special connections, won’t cut it for IBD or management consulting. I am not sure that with your 3.3 GPA, you would have had much success with IBD or Management Consulting recruiting, even if you come from engineering at Princeton.</p>

<p>In the end, it comes down to: can the most of Princeton/ top Ivy students count on getting high-paying jobs in IBD, S&T, or Management Consulting? (These three are the only fields that pay starting salaries near 6 figure. PE and HF pay more than these, but they are almost impossible to get straight out of college)</p>

<p>The answer? NO. For IBD/ Management Consulting - 3.5-3.6 GPA is the minimum requirement, usually, just to get to first round interviews. (Again, they might cut some slack if you majored in hard sciences/ engineering) And, for Management Consulting, you really have to ace those case interviews after you get interviews. Again, you really think McKinsey or BCG will hand out offers to you just because of your Princeton pedigree? For example, McKinsey hires less than a hundred people a year for business analyst positions. It is incredibly tough to get a job at top Management Consulting. (only top firms pay you close to six figure starting out)</p>

<p>For S&T: they prefer those with quantitative major/ skills. If you have mediocre to average GPA + humanities major, you can probably cross off this option as well.</p>

<p>Overall, the career statistics survey speaks louder volumes than your speculation.</p>

11

<p>As a grad student who came from a decent-but-not-world-class college, I think I have to agree with Fermat* to some extent (though (s)he was probably exaggerating things). My undergrad uni was reasonably good at hooking students up with jobs, but truth be told the opportunities offered by recruiters here are just insane. Off the top of my head, I can list three companies with unbelievably strong presences here that didn’t even bother advertising at my old uni. As Fermat was saying, attending a top-notch school like Princeton definitely opens up some opportunities.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, attending some second-tier school most definitely does not doom you. If you do well enough in college and get some interesting side projects / research going, you can land a very decent job (ex. two of my friends are now at Apple, others at Raytheon, one at the NSA, etc.). The key is standing out from your peers, and showing the companies that you would make a high-caliber employee.</p>

<ul>
<li>Did you end up speaking with Wiles while you were here, by the way? I heard he wants to have a word with you.</li>
</ul>

12

<p>OK, you are constantly attacking my one phrase when I said 100K+ jobs on Wall St. are certainly available - like cesium55 said, I certainly may have exaggerated that fact. Truth be told, I did not work as hard as I should have and was able to take an awesome job out of Princeton, which is why I said what I said.</p>

<p>But that’s certainly not the crux of my argument. I argued that getting into a top tier school will open up more doors than the applicants can imagine. While many HS applicants are getting the soft “it-doesn’t-matter-where-you-go-to-college” treatment from their college counselors, friends, and parents, we all know that isn’t true. Because it does matter. This is a VERY critical time for HS students - because going to the best school will undoubtedly help them so much in their lives. That is the point I was trying to make - a point which I hope HS students across the country will understand and take their application very seriously.</p>

<p>And LazyKid, since you seem to be knowledgeable about finance, you certainly would understand that a top school like Princeton is a feeder school to Wall Street, as long as you don’t mess up your GPA too much. Anything above 3.0+ at Princeton, with enough leverage and connections, can land you an excellent job in a bulge bracket. And I honestly, truly, believe this.</p>

<p>Had you gone to a state school, you’d be passed on from the initial interviews, even if you had a 4.0. This is what I mean when I say doors of opportunities will be shut. </p>

<p>Attending a top school is absolutely critical and opens up thousands of more doors compared to going to a less prestigious college. This is a fact. Like it or not, it’s a fact. If you disagree, then you are just fooling yourself. Good luck.</p>

13

<p>“with enough leverage and connections” are the key words. I don’t believe graduating from Princeton or Harvard guarantees you a good job unless you have these leverage and connections or working hard in more employable majors.
A CS degree from top state school like Berkeley will have a much better chance of getting you a decent paying (90k+) job than getting a religious study degree at Harvard. My H tour guide got this degree, and was still looking for a job months after graduation.
For Wall street jobs, Princeton and Harvard grad have an advantage over state school grads for sure but I know some state school students got IB job a year before graduation.</p>

14

<p>

</p>

<p>This is exactly my thoughts, which is based on my observation over the years as well as career surveys I’ve seen across different schools. Even if you graduate from Harvard or Princeton, if your major is in worthless liberal arts such as history, literature, or political science, you risk being completely screwed in the job market. The take-home point here is that where you go to school matters for finance analyst jobs, but not too much for other types of jobs. Hence, the choice of your major can be much more important than where you choose to attend college for your job placement, if you are planning on a non-finance career. (If you are SURE that you want to get into finance, going to a top Ivy is the best choice)</p>

<p>The most popular major at Princeton is Political Science. I am asking, what are these kids thinking?</p>

<p>In my opinion, computer science, pharmacy, engineering, and accounting major at a good state university >>> humanites/ liberal arts major at Princeton, Yale, and Harvard. And, I have no State school bias, as I attended an Ivy undergraduate and will attend another Ivy for law school.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This is another point that I strongly agree with. You don’t need to go to Harvard or Princeton to get IB jobs. As long as you attend a good enough of a university where finance employers recruit to begin with, the rest is up to you to seal the deal. In conclusion, where you attend school is not make or break factor in getting top jobs for most individuals across many different schools. Granted, if you attend a non-target state university, you can forget IB jobs. Coming from Michigan, UVA, NYU, Berkeley, or UIUC -caliber schools, IB is a possibility and it is really up to you after that.</p>

<p>Or, consider graduate school admissions. For top law schools and medical schools, where you went to college is highly irrelevant. They only care about an applicant’s GPA + test scores. I know that for law school admissions, 3.9 GPA from Iowa State carries more weight than 3.7 GPA from Princeton. And, I suspect the same is true of medical school admissions. Fair or not, that is how it works. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, going to a top school is important for placement into finance jobs. I know that, and I’ve gone through IB recruiting myself. Going to a top school means that banks recruit on your campus, but it doesn’t mean that you will get a banking job yourself. All it means is that if you try hard and you want it, you theoretically stand a chance of landing interviews from banks on-campus, but nothing more than that.</p>

<p>Furthermore, like I’ve mentioned several times now, a significant portion of Princeton or Harvard grads don’t end up with jobs in finance anyway. At least 50% of Princeton grads aren’t employed after graduation - either due to inability to get jobs or heading directly to grad school. Use your logical reasoning senses here just a bit. From opportunity cost-led point of view, very few would turn down IBD 100k+ analyst job offers and head to grad school directly. The cold fact here suggests that 50% of kids from Princeton aren’t even employed.</p>

<p>You keep resorting to your own fortunate job search to project how Princeton students overall would do in job market. Look at the objective data.</p>

<p>Only 143 graduates of 2010 from Princeton, or 12% of Princeton grads, are employed in financial advisory services. And, I am willing to bet that not all of them are working in IBD or S&T at BB or top boutique shops. For instance, even if you get a job at Operations department at Goldman Sachs, your employment counts as ‘employed in financial sector’. Hence, not all of those 12% Princeton grads who are employed in finance sector are working banking or trading jobs paying 100k+. </p>

<p>And, the largest employment industry sector for Princeton grads are in non-profit, with 16% of all Princeton grads working in non-profit. And, for non-profit sector, the average starting salary for Princeton grads were $37,000. Also factor in 25% of Princeton grads who graduated UNEMPLOYED, and you will see my point re: many who graduate from Princeton get no where close to a top banking job on Wall Street.</p>

<p>Overall, those who end up with top banking and trading jobs are rather few coming out of Princeton, and you would be dumb to deny this. Just look at the facts. And, don’t tell me that against all these facts, anyone with a pulse from Princeton can just sign up for a banking job. IBD jobs are very competitive, and even coming from Princeton, you’d better have the entire package that banks are looking for: top GPA, banking-related internships, ability to network, interviewing skills, and solid extra curricular activities. </p>

<p>In the end, the problem with your post is that it conveys wrong information and perception to others who read it. Some may be led to believe that attending X,Y,Z college will automatically set them up for life. I know plenty of kids who go to top school such as Stanford, Harvard, or Cornell (where I went to college) and didn’t really make the best out of their resources/ opportunities AND they majored in general liberal arts, and now they are either unemployed or working second-tier jobs. </p>

<p>I’ve presented enough evidence to prove you wrong. If you disagree, at least back up your claim with reasonable sources or logic.</p>

15

<p>I am a Junior in high school. I have a 4.0, 34 on the ACT (first try, i have not taken the SAT yet) and i have a list of extracurriculars that is respectable. I have plans to do some things that I hope will make my college resume look better as I am planning to apply to Stanford, Princeton, Cornell, Purdue, Illinois, and Georgia Tech as i want to pursue a degree in computer engineering.</p>

<p>Fermat, your post was simply amazing. I loved hearing from you that if I don’t get accepted to Stanford or Princeton (which is a very good chance considering the selectivity of those colleges) that I will not be able to go certain places in life. It was fantastic hearing your attempt to tell me that if I get rejected from my dream school, then my life will not amount to as much as somebody who got in to Harvard or Princeton. Thank you. When i get my rejection letter from Princeton or Stanford, i will then proceed to attend one of the state schools on my list that will apparently “shut doors” for me later in life. Last time I checked, Princeton is the worst ranked school (from my list of 6 that was stated before) for computer engineering by US News. So you expect me to believe that if I go to Princeton over a state school that is ranked better than Princeton for my specific major, i won’t go as far in life?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

16

<p>

</p>

<p>Did you ever think that not everyone wants to work on Wall Street? These students will be fine. Thank God not everyone on campus is as narrowly focuses as you are Fermat.</p>

17

<p>There is no Political Science major at Princeton. Not everyone on these boards knows what they are talking about (including the original OP). For a list of academic A. B. departments at Princeton, go to [Princeton</a> University - Departments & Programs](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/main/academics/departments/]Princeton”>Areas of Study | Princeton University)</p>

18

<p>“Political Science” is close enough to “Politics”… No need to nitpick</p>

19

<p>Hopeful, you underestimate the ego of the Princeton grad. When we say, “We don’t have a Political Science major,” you may be sure it is stated with some disdain for those who come across as poseurs but misstate simple facts. If you’re interested in Princeton, you should know what the school offers, or doesn’t offer, as the case may be. If being accurate is merely nitpicking to you, I fear you shall remain forever hopeful, never to be actually fulfilled.</p>

20

<p>Whatever man, I’m sick of this thread and trying to argue with you guys.</p>

<p>The fact is, if you get into a top school, you can be rest assured you will have many more opportunities open to you compared to someone who went to a lesser ranked school, ceteris paribus.</p>

<p>If you’re trying to compare religion major from Princeton to a math major from UC Berkeley, then that does help your argument in any way - and you call yourself a lawyer. You have to compare apples to apples my friend - Princeton grad to UC Berkeley grad, ceteris paribus.</p>

<p>And Yes, Chewey56, I am telling you just that - if you don’t get into a top school, you will have many doors of opportunity shut on you. Life is much, MUCH easier with a top degree.</p>

<p>So suck it up, work on your applications, and do the best you can. No one said life was easy - best of luck to all the applicants out there, and may the best man win.</p>