Seems to me that “knowing” what the hours are is very different than knowing how it will feel or how an individual will respond to the hours and stress. Kind of like becoming a parent - certainly everyone tells you about sleepless nights but until you go through it (and depending on the specifics of your baby’s sleep schedule), you really don’t “know” what it is like.
Medicine evolved to institute a maximum 80 hour work week for residents when it became apparent that longer hours were just not effective. Why can’t IB do something similar? Certainly, most of these banks could employ a few more first years to lessen the load - even if it means a slight reduction in the bonus structure or first year salary. The money would still be incredibly good.
The sentiment in this thread seems to be too bad, they know what they were getting into, rather than perhaps this is a system that needs to change. As some have said, in the past there was more downtime built into the process, but now everything is at lightning speed. Is it still the best way to run things?
Actually agree with both sentiments : too bad and needs to change. Have had this conversation with IBers many times (various levels including a Vice Chairman HS buddy of mine.) I can’t think of another professional industry as inefficient with work time activities. So many hours required to be present doing nothing, waiting for instructions. Non covid, why so much face time required? If they’re waiting for instructions, how about letting them wait at home while they eat, nap, workout, run an errand.
The irony is this isn’t brain surgery. Things that will never be read (because decision makers don’t care about the minutia in footnote 17A -3 on slide 57 - trust me they really don’t!) are positioned as hyper critical must haves by 9am. Easy to require someone do something when you’re not doing it.
Frankly the whole pitch frenzy routine seems so archaic. As a professional sales guy who has closed many board room deals, it seems like they just try to create transactions by pitching everything they can think of. That’s the part that really needs to change. How about building a relationship with the C-Suite and really understanding their business and discovering their needs and then providing a solution? Yes I know it’s a competitive landscape and every other bank is throwing up all over them. What’s the hit rate? 1:10, 1:25, 1:100? Don’t know. I do know, however, it would be way higher if they weren’t throwing it all against the wall (what about this, ok what about that, ok what about this other one…) It’s like they don’t know anything about selling which is really all about relationships and solutions (which means it’s about the client - not about the bank - which is all transactional). Yes I know this would require a total MO overhaul and the old guard won’t do it. Eventually someone will.
Plenty of people ARE doing it. All the boutiques… with an industry focus (some blue chip, tiny firms) who really know their clients and the ecosystem they operate in. There’s space for a boutique AND for the big generalist/old guard firms.
Similar situation in law and consulting. The best law firm I’ve worked with was a 100 lawyer litigation boutique, and I’ve found the best experiences in consulting at 100-200 person specialist firms. That size is a sweet spot, it’s big enough to have an impact but small enough to know almost everyone in the firm and feel you are all part of a single team. I found everything is forced to become more structured when you grow much beyond 200 people, as Dunbar’s number predicts: Dunbar's number - Wikipedia
At least some of the kids get this, the law firm I mentioned did very well in hiring newly qualified lawyers who were top of their class at H, Y or S.
Boutiques can be a really good place to be, especially as you get more senior. Recognize though that there are different kinds of boutiques. They can be industry or product specific. Some call themselves boutiques because they are small, but really are generalists but in fewer areas of coverage. The risk of boutiques is often they are reliant on a small group of rainmakers or a narrow band of clients. This creates greater possibility for volatility in the business. Also, the tendency is to have less comprehensive formal training for entry level professionals (assuming they even hire entry level employees). While a firm like GS is going to put analysists and associates through the wringer, when they look to move on, whether to another IB, including boutiques, PE, VC, hedge fund, etc… the well trained box will be ticked off.
This should be a thread unto itself. I suspect that the “fun things when you are 25 that cost little money” answers would vary greatly. Especially if it’s in terms of what was fun to you - and how little it cost you when you actually were 25.
Limited sympathy here. Several banks just announced $20k morale boosting bonuses to analysts with promises to raise base compensation in July as well. One private equity firm announced a solid $100k one-time bonus for associates to remain for a year.
I could use some advice. D is a soph in college and is interviewing for IB internships summer after junior year…many of us know this is the timeline. She has an internship lined up this summer with an alternative asset management company, so she’s good there.
The issue with these IB companies is that they all have pretty staggered timelines for the internship process. She has had success getting interviews (she is a highly self motivated person) and has an offer from a second tier firm, which she is happy with of course. But, she is at the deadline of accepting that offer. She has had interviews with a bulge bracket firm that went well…but they won’t communicate offers for another month. She also has upcoming interviews with another bulge bracket bank.
She obviously is learning how things work in the real world! She is going to accept the offer she has in hand. I assume some students who have accepted internships do get better offers, and then retract the position they had accepted…but H and I counsel against doing that. What say posters here?
And regarding scheduled interviews that haven’t yet happened…is it ethical to keep those even if you wouldn’t take the internship? Benefit of continued networking? Thoughts?
Your D should discuss the timeline with career services at her college. Some schools do not allow these “staggered” (aka exploding) offers, and those that do, generally have guidelines as to how to manage them.
Continuing to interview once you have accepted a job is typically frowned upon (it hurts your fellow students by taking up a slot), and reneging on an offer isn’t very honorable. It happens-- much more now than 10 years ago- but it’s not a good practice. I’ve had students tell me “XYZ company won’t remember me in five years if I decide I want to work here then” when they renege on an offer. True. We have a global database, but reneging on an offer many years ago isn’t likely to come back to you.
But recruiters change jobs- and we NEVER forget the names of kids who have reneged!
Thanks for your feedback, which I always find valuable and I agree with everything you said. I work at a smallish boutique consulting firm and am involved in hiring (we all are!) and feel the same way.
She has been in close contact with career services throughout, and I did ask her what advice they are giving her, just haven’t heard back yet. If I haven’t heard from her by the end of the day I will have to text some dog pictures, which always get a response
Deadlines are not holy. The person who wrote the deadline into the offer letter can replace it with a longer deadline- based on professional judgement.
I will ALWAYS extend an offer for a student who levels with me- aka “I am really interested in your company, but I have one more company to explore and don’t want to cut the interviewing off if it is at all possible to get an extension”. What is irksome is “I have 8 more first round interviews scheduled, and a couple of them are much more prestigious than your company so here’s the deal- if I don’t get a better offer, I’ll accept, can we pick up the conversation in a month?” (of course nobody says that- but that’s the clear implication).
But career services will likely give her the preferred messaging!
My son had the exact same issue a few years ago. Had a good offer from an IB firm but was really hoping for a slot at a trading firm where he had completed multiple interview rounds. He told the trading firm that he had a deadline from the IB. Trading firm got him into their office quickly for final round and made him an offer same day to beat the deadline.
She has already extended the offer once (and received a week)…not sure if she asked for more or not. She just texted that career services isn’t the most helpful and is relying on upperclassmen and recent alumni in these types of jobs for advice.
Thank you. She has communicated to the recruiter at the firm where she had good interviews (which they moved up for her to accommodate the outstanding offer)…basically saying I do have a good offer, but would like yours better and would accept on the spot if you could make something happen by X day.
