Socio-economic correlation with low test scores?

<p>About that internet access at the public library - you line up. When it’s your turn, you get a computer for 30 minutes. If you need more time, go back to the end of the line. Hardly equal access.</p>

<p>Acadmic rigor - very hard to take the toughest classes requiring hours of homework when you have to work in order to “help out” with things like lot rental. Obvioiusly, if you can’t take the toughest classes, with or without prep, you’re not going to score as well on those tests.</p>

<p>And I believe the reason you’re not going to find more than correlation between income and test scores is because poverty is a very complex problem that cannot be addressed in such simplistic terms. To say, well, those kids went to school and had “access” to the same materials via the library, obviously, something else must be responsible for the lower test scores is naive. There are far more variables to consider than simply access to a free, public education.</p>

<p>“About that internet access at the public library - you line up. When it’s your turn, you get a computer for 30 minutes. If you need more time, go back to the end of the line. Hardly equal access.”</p>

<p>In addition, the public libraries in poor areas are either nonexistent or aren’t open many days a week. Poor students also may lack the transportation to get to those libraries.</p>

<p>“Acadmic rigor - very hard to take the toughest classes requiring hours of homework when you have to work in order to “help out” with things like lot rental. Obvioiusly, if you can’t take the toughest classes, with or without prep, you’re not going to score as well on those tests.”</p>

<p>Also, schools with large proportions of poor students have far more remedial classes than AP classes. The schools also are much more likely to have inexperienced teachers and teachers who are teaching classes outside of the discipline that they were trained in.</p>

<p>GCs have to spend a lot of time with students who are flunking out or have legal or housing problems. The GCs don’t have much time to spend with the high achieving students nor do the GCs have the knowledge about the top colleges that the students could aspire to.</p>

<p>@Theasterisk
I didn’t say “intellegence” and “their general economic status” did not produce(?) their scores, or affect them for that matter. And above I simply noted that it is logically fallacious to assume that my argument (for economic status) applies to a different scenario (for race), <em>and</em> that if my argument per se did apply to race it would do so indirectly (obviously, as my argument does not include race).</p>

<p>@xrCalico23, post #17
I did mention genetics; I didn’t suggest anything about race though-- not that it is or isn’t a factor, it just wasn’t within the focus of my argument.</p>

<p>After reading these posts and acknowledging a bit more of the causation, I now ask the CC’ers what role they think that socio-economic background should take in the admissions process compared to what it currently takes. Take into consideration that student backgrounds and availability of resources (xrCalico23, post #16) are not perfectly correlated with income.</p>

<p>If, for instance, a low income student has a very high gpa and meets the SAT qualifications for a place like an Ivy (roughly an 1800), then I think they should have an excellent chance of being admitted because it’s likely that they are very smart and have a very strong work ethic. They probably are smarter and work harder than do affluent kids with similar gpas but much higher SATs.</p>

<p>The low income student would start behind at the top school, but would have the brains and work ethic to be able to excel in that environment, which would be their first time having access to such educational resources.</p>

<p>Most schools will always need a large percentage of full pay students, so outside of a handful of colleges, low income will never be a huge factor in admissions in general. At the few colleges where it can be, I agree with Northstarmom, though think they’ll need higher than an 1800 because as the message gets out about low income initiatives the number of applicants in this category keeps growing.</p>

<p>I, too, believe that low-income students (especially those from under-performing schools) with comparable scores to those who enjoy higher incomes should be given an edge in the admissions process. Though both possess more-or-less the same numbers, the former cluster’s achieving them is (often) much more of a feat. </p>

<p>I’m a high school student on the poverty line, so I may be biased—but I also have a handful of close friendships with kids my age from affluent backgrounds, and I frequently note the stark differences between us. While a bit of this may be repetitive, I’d like to elaborate on what I mean:</p>

<p>For one, a disadvantaged student’s home life is likely more turbulent. While anyone, regardless of income, can reside in a dysfunctional environment, someone who faces an abysmal socioeconomic status may be more imperiled; often, the lack of a good family/lifestyle model, which is arguably more distinct in poor, rural areas with low literacy rates, can exacerbate issues. In my town, for example, teen pregnancies, drug habits and general illegal behavior abound. Most teenagers engage in sex- and drug-related activities, I know, but a poor kid is less likely to just dabble in them. Hard drug culture is often the /only/ culture disadvantaged kids are exposed to, and once they take that route, aids like rehab programs are far from their grasp.</p>

<p>Also, as others have mentioned, a low-income student may face the ever-present burden of financially supporting him or herself, and possibly his or her entire family. Single-parent households, which are common, create an even greater amount of stress. When a kid is forced to engage in hard labor for hours in the double-digits each week, it’s much more difficult for him to find the time (and the mental strength) to study, as opposed to a well-off kid who is given an allowance by his parents and has ample leisure time. Additional idiosyncrasies among the lower class can create obstacles as well; family members issue more laconic replies (I think Malcolm Gladwell wrote of a study on this, but I’m not sure…), discourage intellectual pursuits because they interfere with those of a religious kind (I’ve personally encountered this), generally place less emphasis on academic achievement because it isn’t necessarily “practical” or “politically correct” and on—and these traits effectively stifle an above-average student who naturally wants to please and “fit in” with those closest to him.</p>

<p>Underachievement is in the ether at underprivileged schools, if not at home. At my high school, there are no cliques that like to make esoteric Latin puns and plan study groups for the SAT II, as I’ve seen people discuss on CC. Instead, a kid who smuggles in a book to read between classes is automatically branded as someone who thinks he’s “better than everyone else”. Social ostracism marks a student who simply /cares/ about his GPA. We have no counselor to offer us sage advice on college decisions, but a woman who visits once a year to inform you of how many credits you need to graduate. </p>

<p>An issue stemming from a dearth of resources is likely present as well… Others here have already explained this, so I won’t go too deep into it.</p>

<p>But, yeah, my rambling aside: I contend that a kid from an egregiously poor background with a 700 SAT Reading score has demonstrated just as much initiative and tenacity, if not more, as one from a rich background who scored an 800 in the same section.</p>

<p>^5 to Meilie’s entire post. Those from affluent/middle class backgrounds not ewhat Meilie said about kids in schools with lots of low income students being derided by classmates for doing things like reading. The product of an excellent public school system and an Ivy education, I didn’t believe that such things existed until I saw them with my own eyes while volunteering in Detroit public schools.</p>

<p>I also mentored smart, poor students there who lacked self confidence because they had been harassed by their peers and even by teachers for doing things like answering questions in class, doing their homework or joining NHS.</p>

<p>Welcome to CC, Meilie. I’m glad you found it. Feel free to make yourself at home, too, at Parents Forum here. There are lots of wise parents willing to offer good advice to ambitious, hardworking students whose schools and families aren’t able to help them that much.</p>

<p>Ruby Payne posits that poverty (the generational kind) has its own distinct culture with its own values. She says students from low income brackets head off to college not understanding what is valued and rapidly get into trouble. For instance, in the middle class families encourage students to put their own education first. You’ve seen in many times here on CC, “School first.” Families in poverty put family first, but the definition of family is much broader. So, a student from a low-income family is likely to miss class when their presence is demanded by the family. And something like “my girlfriend’s aunt is in the hospital” can be presented as a legitimate reason for missing class, even an exam. (Yes, I get stuff like this all the time.)</p>

<p>I think, as far as the admissions process is concerned, schools seeking to welcome low-income and first generation applicants should have systems in place to support these students as they have more to learn than just academics. There are over 800 institutions of higher learning with Federal Trio grants (Student Support Services) aimed at serving this population. Schools with these programs are set up to help non-affluent students become successful. I’m sure there are state and institutional programs which might also be effective. </p>

<p>Are the Ivies or top LACs any good at this? I don’t know. I imagine with so few of these kinds of students in their populations, they may be able to give the support those students need (read Ron Suskind’s “A Hope in the Unseen”). However, could they successfully integrate a large number of these students? I don’t think so. They simply don’t have the necessary support systems.</p>

<p>Ruby Payne posits that poverty (the generational kind) has its own distinct culture with its own values. She says students from low income brackets head off to college not understanding what is valued and rapidly get into trouble. For instance, in the middle class families encourage students to put their own education first. You’ve seen in many times here on CC, “School first.” Families in poverty put family first, but the definition of family is much broader. So, a student from a low-income family is likely to miss class when their presence is demanded by the family. And something like “my girlfriend’s aunt is in the hospital” can be presented as a legitimate reason for missing class, even an exam. (Yes, I get stuff like this all the time.)</p>

<p>I think, as far as the admissions process is concerned, schools seeking to welcome low-income and first generation applicants should have systems in place to support these students as they have more to learn than just academics. There are over 800 institutions of higher learning with Federal Trio grants (Student Support Services) aimed at serving this population. Schools with these programs are set up to help non-affluent students become successful. I’m sure there are state and institutional programs which might also be effective. </p>

<p>Are the Ivies or top LACs any good at this? I don’t know. I imagine with so few of these kinds of students in their populations, they may be able to give the support those students need (read Ron Suskind’s “A Hope in the Unseen”). However, could they successfully integrate a large number of these students? I don’t think so. They simply don’t have the necessary support systems.</p>

<p>Keellota:</p>

<p>You might not have mentioned race specifically, but by suggesting that a family’s income does not majorly affect a student’s test performance, you then lack an explanation why one poorer socioeconomic group (African Americans) stastically does worse on standardized tests than another, more wealthy one (Caucasians).</p>

<p>That’s not to mention the numerous other problems that low-income students face while actually in college. Low-income students are much more likely to go to school near home because of cost, but this can be a problem. Like another poster suggested, low-income students are often expected to contribute financially to their families. So on top of paying for college, those students also have to pay for their family’s living expenses - problematic, given that they will often be working long hours. Working and learning simultaneously is no crime, but low-income students often come from poor educational backgrounds, meaning no matter how bright they are, they have to work harder because they also have to play catch-up.</p>

<p>A student of low socioeconomic status may have the same scores and GPA as a student of middle or upper socioeconomic status. The latter students may have started at 0 but the student of low socioeconomic status started at -25. It has very little do with test prep and everything to do with culture and environment; not to mention that poor schools lead to poorer SAT scores regardless of study.</p>

<p>When I taught at a second tier public, I had low income students who were indeed sending money home (despite having taken out very large loans to attend college) and were also helping to raise their siblings. For instance, one student was raising their sibling because their single parent mom was addicted.</p>