Software vs Electrical Engineering

College Majors Engineering Majors
21

<p>"Auburn, could you give examples of what you and other math snobs (no offense) consider to be “real math”? "

  • No offense taken. I think most of “us” know we’re being snobbish when we have these exclusionary opinions…</p>

<p>To answer your question, real math… it’s sort of like love. Nobody can tell you you’re in love, but you know. I’m actually being more serious than you’d think…</p>

<p>You can teach just about any “mathematical” subject in a variety of ways, some of which would count as “mathematics” and some of which wouldn’t. Prime examples of this include differential equations and probability and statistics. You can teach both as applied subjects for scientists and engineers, and you can learn both like that. What is differential equations besides all the techniques? What is probability and statistics besides knowing how to calculate averages and odds? Well, the typical engineer would say “nothing more”, whereas the (decent) math (and, to a lesser extent, CS) major would say “a lot more”.</p>

<p>What subjects typically count as “real” math? Well, real analysis, abstract algebra, and topology are good candidates. Things like graph theory, combinatorial designs, coding theory, and game theory may also count, depending on how they are taught. Other courses, such as numerical analysis, cryptography, etc… can also be taught as mathematics courses, but this will depend on treatment.</p>

<p>In CS, courses like Discrete Math, Algorithms, and Formal Languages are usually safe bets, depending on how they’re done. Other courses will have some math mixed in with non-mathematical subjects…</p>

<p>The differences can be subtle, but the following questions can normally guide you…

  • Is the goal of most exercises to calculate a number, or a specific instance of some other well-defined mathematical structure?
  • Do the mechanics required to solve most exercises come from high-school algebra, trig, pre-calculus, or calculus?
  • Does the problem rely mostly on solving specific differential equations or using techniques from linear algebra on specific structures?
  • Do you not know what the “answer” is supposed to be before you begin the exercises (if answers are given simply for self-check purposes, this still applies)?
  • Can you write down answers to exercises without providing a logical explanation, either in practice or in theory?</p>

<p>If you answered yes to most of the questions, you’re probably not in an actual mathematics class.</p>

22

<p>“As an electrical engineer OR computer scientist, you will get to do none of these.”

  • Well, I wouldn’t go that far.</p>

<p>“Most useful algorithms and equations have already been derived”

  • lol</p>

<p>“and all you need to do is figure out which one you need to use for a particular problem.”

  • True enough, but then again, this isn’t always the case, and you would need the theoretical knowledge to make that call in the first place.</p>

<p>“With that said, there are more CS jobs than EE…but either way you will find a good job.”

  • Agreed. I don’t see why people have to make such a ****ing contest out of this. When I said that CS is more math- and logic- centric, I didn’t mean that to the detriment of EE - EE is a hard degree at which only intelligent people can succeed.</p>
23

<p>What’s so funny about my statement that most useful algorithms and equations have already been derived? I’m saying “useful” in the concept of mainstream industrial application.</p>

<p>Surely you don’t think the average google or microsoft employee actually comes up with a breakthrough algorithm. I know microsoft employees well and most of them either just write test scripts (automate the testing of software), or hunt for bugs. When you become much more senior, then you work on additional features and usually that has nothing to do with algorithms.</p>

24

<p>Sadly, (many) computer science grads become “commodity…” they aren’t considered any more valuable whether they’ve been working 10 or 20 years, compared to 5 or maybe even 2 years.</p>

<p>In this respect, electrical engineering may be the safer field to go into, since at least you can specialize in something that newer grads probably will have not much of a clue about.</p>

25

<p>CS does have more entry level positions compared to EE - atleast in development/coding</p>

<p>But dont forget that someone with 20 years of coding is comparable to someone with 4-5 years in the same area. Why hire an expensive “experienced” cs guy when you can get one cheaper and get the job done. </p>

<p>EE is different, experience counts.</p>

26

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<p>Go work in a software company that generates a moderate number of patents.</p>

27

<p>good idea, will you provide a reference? :)</p>

28

<p>Sounds like a “no true Scotsman” approach to defining math.</p>

29

<p>CS has grown into a very big field. So it’s hard to generalize. Of course, initially, many forerunners of CS had been also prominent mathematicians (eg, Alan Turing) so CS is more pure-math oriented than other engineering disciplines in the traditional sense (CS is grown out of mathematics above all). However, as the field grows and transcends (especially when the curriculum is transformed to be more industry oriented), probably the math part of CS becomes more of an option and people can still obtain the degree by being mere “programmers” or “software engineers”. I personally know people awful at math (and hate it) doing OK/well in his CS classes and others who were math majors and are successful doing research in grad school specialized in Electrical Engineering (probably because it’s math intensive at the graduate level, though more applied).</p>

<p>So yeah, I think it just depends how you make of it.</p>

<p>My 3 cent. :)</p>

30

<p>"Sounds like a “no true Scotsman” approach to defining math. "

  • I never said that my prejudices were based on a firm logical argument. I’m just trying to help you guys understand the way I, and a lot of other people I know in math and CS, look at it. And if anybody gets to decide what “mathematics” should be, it should be those who practice it… mathematicians. I know a fair number of them, professors at least, and basically all of them have expressed to me similar (though perhaps less intense) sentiments towards the “service” courses. Long story short, I’m not making this up… and it’s a matter of opinion, so I don’t see how logical fallacies have anything to do with this. De gustibus non est disputandum.</p>

<p>And somebody said there are a lot of CS majors who are terrible at math. I concur. I think this is a travesty and think these students are in the wrong major. I don’t blame them, though, because it’s the universities’ fault for watering down the theoretical content of CS courses so they can pass.</p>

<p>And can somebody provided a peer-reviewed, published, authoritative article that provides evidence for the claim that the markets for “computer scientists” and “software engineers” are perfectly competitive (commodity markets)? I see this thrown around a lot, and honestly, I think it’s hearsay.</p>

31

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<p>It could also be individual professors or a few in the math department.</p>

<p>I’ve seen students that did poorly in math courses receive passing and sometimes
a B grade where they really can’t do the material. I don’t necessarily know if this
is bad as I think that most CS majors go into programming and the theoretical math
is not required for the vast majority of programming work out there.</p>

<p>Should they get the degree? I don’t know. The degree is marketed in a fuzzy way.
Most CS students do not know what they are in for when they sign up for CS.
How many times do we have to explain the math aspect to those asking about
CS on this board? The ACM guys should do a video.</p>

32

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<p>Well, I’m pretty stingy with references and I need to know the person for quite some time unless they can walk on water (I’ve run into a few of these types in the past, like a Phd from MIT that had already started and sold a tech company).</p>

33

<p>well, from my experience, those CS majors awful at math certainly do get bad grades in Math, but they can still do relatively well in courses like computer security, computer architecture, operating system, etc etc. I think sometimes people who major in CS are actually more fit in say computer engineering or software engineering.</p>

34

<p>^ How would they do well in computer engineering if they are bad at math?</p>

35

<p>^
Calculus for engineers, differential equations for engineers, and linear algebra for engineers is “math” only in the sense that you deal with numbers. You can be great at that and terrible at “real math”, and conversely.</p>

36

<p>Wait, so in CS what kind of math do you use as opposed to EE/CE? I’ve already come to conclude, from the posts about CS, that CS is NOT a programming nor a software engineering track.</p>

37

<p>real math. whoa im shakin in my boots. watch out engineering majors.</p>

38

<p>Not to say that “real math” is any harder or more worthwhile than what engineers would call math, let me clarify.</p>

<p>But engineers can’t have their cake and eat it too. They don’t really do math. They do calculations. I’m not saying they should do math, or that they are at fault for not doing; just that they don’t, and CS majors do (not all the time, and not as much as actual math majors, but they do)</p>

<p>“Wait, so in CS what kind of math do you use as opposed to EE/CE? I’ve already come to conclude, from the posts about CS, that CS is NOT a programming nor a software engineering track.”

  • There may be some overlap, sure, but when I’m talking about math in CS I’m talking about things like… algorithmic analysis, complexity theory, formal language theory, data structures, etc. and the pure math that goes along with it - abstract algebra and number theory, for example.</p>

<p>I would suggest that those of you who want to really understand the difference go check out the following wikipedia articles:</p>

<p>[Applied</a> mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_mathematics]Applied”>Applied mathematics - Wikipedia)
[Pure</a> mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_mathematics]Pure”>Pure mathematics - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>The lengths are pretty reasonable and there are good insights, worded much better than I have done so far.</p>

39

<p>I’m not usually one to question the point of an argument but really, what is trying to be said here? I think too much false information is being told.</p>

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<p>What is real math? pure math? I hope not. According to the wiki link you posted their definition,</p>

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<p>can’t be what you mean as that makes it irrelevant to CS as well.</p>

<p>Can you explain how abstract algebra and analysis have more to do with CS than EE? I think you mentioned you where a physics major. You should read a little about the history of math and physics and maybe you’ll understand.</p>

40

<p>“I’m not usually one to question the point of an argument but really, what is trying to be said here? I think too much false information is being told.”

  • The argument has evolved into the differences in the kind of math EE/CE (and, in general, engineering) majors do and what CS/math majors do. Pay attention.</p>

<p>“What is real math? pure math? I hope not. According to the wiki link you posted their definition,”

  • Way to selectively pick out and misinterpret / fail to understand a single line of text from the two articles I cited. There is plenty of mathematics in CS which can be done in a completely pure fashion. I’m not saying that all of actual mathematics is pure mathematics. I’m trying to show the flavor for the difference between what actual mathematics is (and I would say some, if not most, applied mathematics counts as real mathematics).</p>

<p>Pure math : applied math :: real math : basic undergraduate engineering math</p>

<p>Computer science is a prime example of where pure, beautiful mathematics has found applications. Engineers use applied mathematics, they don’t do it. Go back and read the articles before you take a tone with me.</p>

<p>"You should read a little about the history of math and physics and maybe you’ll understand. "

  • Maybe you should go to finishing school and you’ll be less pretentious.</p>