<p>I don't understand the legal basis of incriminating abortion. because it is murder? why would it be murder? scientifically, the fetus is not a person. it cannot survive on its own, CERTAINLY not in the 1st trimester. other beliefs mostly stem from religion, and the government is not supposed to favor different religions above another.</p>
<p>Stop bringing religion into this. It's a generalization. I am pro-life but have no religious affiliation what so ever. </p>
<p>Just because it can't survive on its own doesn't mean it's not a person.</p>
<p>By the end of the first trimester, the fetus already has a beating heart, formation of outer appendages, teeth, breathing ability (although attaining oxygen through umbilical cord), and brain function (brainwaves recorded on EEG from early as eight weeks) </p>
<p>But whatever makes you feel better...</p>
<p>Why is it ok to kill sperm then? Shouldn't we make masterbation illegal?</p>
<p>To answer the original question: yes, to put it eloquently "some conservatives = hypocrites." I, however, am a liberal, and judging by my screename, some liberals = hypocrites too. I think we have established that.</p>
<p>As for abortion, while I am generally against it, I don't feel that it is the government's responsibility to dictate such a personal decision. Pardon my ignorance if I am repeating what has already been said, but I have not had a chance to go through the entire thread. For decades, many women have been fighting for the right to govern their own bodies, a power which has been held above them by patriachal society for centuries.</p>
<p>If abortion does not remain legal, many teenagers and those living in poverty will find alternative, dangerous methods of aborting fetuses, and, at this time, I feel it is best to provide safe facilities for them to get the procedure done. The rich can fend for themselves; they will always find ways to get around the law. When I say "I feel" I mean that this is not an issue addressed in the Constitution, and therefore we have no constitutional basis to be pro-choice or pro-life. Essentially, if and when the court makes another decision, it will be based on opinion, religious beliefs, and sociological evidence, not the Constitution.</p>
<p>Just_Browsing brings up a very good point. At what stage do we decide that an unborn "baby" is truly a human? At conception? After the first trimester? At birth?</p>
<p>On one last note, not to bring up religion again, but does anyone else find it interesting that the Bible Belt has the highest rate of abortions in the country? Some conservatives = hypocrites indeed.</p>
<p>But because a fetus cannot survive on its own, it is a PARASITE. That is incongruent with the definition of a human being. It has human qualities, but is not a human; monkeys have human qualities, fish have human qualities, bugs have human qualities. Normal humans cannot completely depend on another like a fetus does; that fetus relies completely on the pregnant woman. If abortion is disallowed for being murder, then hunting should be illegal, stepping on bugs should be illegal, pesticides should be legal.</p>
<p>If "they" want to make abortion illegal on the assumption that fetuses are human beings, then we must also given them full legal rights: census records, tax dependency, social security numbers. Giving fetuses <em>legal</em> status as people complicates the issue and shows how absurd it is.</p>
<p>No one and nothing will ever come to the consensus of if a fetus is a human or not, so why bother elevating the opinion of a few to state or federal law? If you think abortion is murder, then don't have an abortion. But don't prohibit those women who want an abortion to get one.</p>
<p>If abortion becomes illegal, hypocrite is right and women will continue to have them. We are from Michigan where it is illegal for girls under 18 to have an abortion without parental consent, yet they still happen in unsafe ways. Anybody remember the baseball bat abortion? I am not an advocate for abortion but I don't believe it should be made illegal simply because I don't want backalley abortions to become the norm.</p>
<p>hemingway, at what point does the parasite become a baby then? when you cut the umbilical cord? does that mean that you would not feel guilty if you beheaded a newborn still attached by the umbilical cord? </p>
<p>romangypseyeyes, murder and drugs are both illegal, and both take place in an unsafe manner in dark alleys. let's legalize both so that they are done neatly and safely in the open, shall we? to say we should not make a law simply because it will be broken is nothing short of astounding</p>
<p>Drugs and murder are completely different. Personally I do think pot should be legal but that's a different topic. But no, let's assume that we make it illegal. People who are terminating pregnancies are more often then not unfit mothers. So let's keep bringing unwanted children into the world to be abused and keep the cycle of violence and drug use going. Giving them up for adoption usually doesn't occur to the mother. Just out of curiosity, have you ever known kids that weren't wanted by their parents?</p>
<p>Random but I love this quote and I don't know if the wording is right or who said it but: </p>
<p>90% of the people who make abortion laws are men. 100% of them will never have to have an abortion.</p>
<p>Sibelius,</p>
<p>Murder is the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law according to the dictionary. Killing an unborn fetus is not murder. I value a person that is already alive more than a cluster of cells.</p>
<p>You are unwilling to realize that there are many times that it is better that a child is aborted than it is born. Teen mothers, poor families, etc..but no, it's better that these kids are born into crap lives isn't it?</p>
<p>Sibelius,
It's clear you haven't lived in places where poverty, drugs and unwanted children are everywhere. I'm not attacking but go spend time at a place where abused children live, or go spend a day at a social worker's office. I want you to know what these children go through. It is a living hell and is NOT a quality life.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You are unwilling to realize that there are many times that it is better that a child is aborted than it is born. Teen mothers, poor families, etc..but no, it's better that these kids are born into crap lives isn't it?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am not self-righteous enough to play God and decide what life is worth living.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sibelius,
It's clear you haven't lived in places where poverty, drugs and unwanted children are everywhere. I'm not attacking but go spend time at a place where abused children live, or go spend a day at a social worker's office. I want you to know what these children go through. It is a living hell and is NOT a quality life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have lived much of my life overseas and visited or lived in some of the poorest countries on earth (China, Pakistan, Russia, etc). I also volunteer once a month at a woman's shelter helping out with kids who have come from abusive families. Keep working on your psychological powers, though, it's a rare gift.</p>
<p>edit: ok, not poor like some of the African countries, but most of the money is in the hands of the top 1% or so. Many of the people are near destitute.</p>
<p>Ok, it's different to visit and KNOW you can leave. I lived that life. My best friend's mother had her when she was 16, and she has 7 brothers and sisters. She raises them all but had the intelligence to go to Harvard, but can't cause she can't focus on school at all. Her little sister took her own life at the age of 11! When these children are born, they can do nothing to break the cycle of poverty and violence. They will then grow up and more then likely have their own unwanted and abused children. I got lucky, my parents broke the cycle when I got a scholarship to a local private school and some charities helped us get out, but I am the less then 1%. And as I said long ago, I don't support abortion but they will happen either way and might as well make it safe for women who don't want to bring children into this harsh world to be impoverished. </p>
<p>And psychological powers? Do you mean psychic?</p>
<p>Mmm, I don't support the legalization of drugs. But you do bring up a really good point that if they were legal they could be done openly and safely. Which is precisely the point.</p>
<p>I do support the decriminalization of drugs, its pretty outrageous how over-packed our prisons are with people who really need to be in rehab, not prison.</p>
<p>I live in Utah with a bunch of mormons (blah) they aren't even supposed to drink coca cola and coffee for God's sake. Though usually if I go to a party they are the ones getting plastered and doing drugs. Then they come to school the next monday and tell you not to swear and preech that drugs and alcohol are so bad. lol!
mormons and consevitives=hypocrites</p>
<p>Sibelius, don't give me crap about playing god.</p>
<p>There are lives that are not worth living. You can't sit here and tell me you would want the life of a homeless person. How about being a crack addicted baby? How about being born with HIV? </p>
<p>Stop acting like eliminating abortion is a great service to all of the children and realize(no matter how much you want to ignore it) that some of the kids are truly better off never being born.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And psychological powers? Do you mean psychic?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ah geez. I knew something looked wrong but my brain was midway through shutting down for the night. Yes, I meant psychic, though I obviously don't even have to tell you.</p>
<p>I agree with other posters (e.g. daisyspells, Sibelius) that some people are hypocrites, and these people can be of any political affiliation.</p>
<p>Some posters (e.g. Just_Browsing) have mentioned conflicting positions that some conservatives hold. Needless to say, some liberals also have conflicting positions. (Affirmative action, anyone?)</p>
<p>A lot of liberal Democrats have absolutely no idea how communist some of the policies they support are. Need-based aid is one of the most direct applications of Marxism; it's absolutely against our nation's capitalist economy.</p>
<p>The liberal Democrats who hate the PRC's "communist government" while supporting affirmative action and need-based aid are hypocrites. The liberal Democrats who actually support the theory of communism while believing in affirmative action and need-based aid aren't.</p>
<p>It's so difficult to practice what you preach. Just ask the parent here who hates the PRC but loves affirmative action. Don't forget to ask the parent who goes postal when a Black citizen claims he was the victim of racism but turns a blind eye to Asian citizens.</p>
<p>That was the most absurd post I've seen yet on CC.</p>
<p>Lets correct it one-by-one shall we?</p>
<p>1) The government of China is barely "communist anymore." One of the main tenets of Marxism is that there is no social heirarchy (in Marxism there is no distinction between social and economic heirarchies). This is obviously not the case in China due to the nature of the highly totalitarian government.</p>
<p>2) For those of us who do hate the PRC, its not because of their communist (or lack thereof) ideology, its because its a totalitarian dictatorship that oppresses its own people. We liberals are pretty good about unconditionally disliking totalitarianism. For instance, we dislike China, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. Historically we disliked Pinochet's Chile, Batista's Cuba, Somoza's Nicaragua. The last three are ones conservatives absolutely adored.</p>
<p>3) Not everything about Marxism and communist is inherently bad just because the people who have applied it so far have been pretty disgusting. For instance, you are right when you say need-based aid is rooted in marxist principles. So? Ask anyone here who wants to pay for college if they think its a good thing. Or another example of good things rooted in Marxism, the idea of a Government "By the people, for the people, of the people" is a pretty Marxist idea. Do you oppose that too?</p>
<p>speaking of marxism v. communist china, and marxism in practise...</p>
<p>i hate how in western (especially american) society is so difficult to say you're a communist; you're automaticlaly assumed to be a Stalinist or a Maoist and support purges, genocide, and forced labor camps. "Communism fails in practise", basically. I absolutely hate that. Most Americans love democracy. Well, democracy is what brought Hamas into power, but most Americans heartily disapprove of Hamas (or, disapprove if they knew what Hamas was). But they still like democracy.</p>
<p>I'm tired of being ashamed to say I'm a socialist, tired of living in a nation afraid to criticise Israel (and I don't mean, "we understand palestinian self-determination", i mean someone WILLING to call Israel a supreme human rights violator and say that Palestinians live as sub-citizens), tired of living in a nation where only Russ Feingold and a few others are brave enough to try to get war funding completley withdrawn, tired of saying i'm "pro-choice" instead of pro-abortion.</p>