Some guidance on reality in engg/science

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>I am a high school senior. I am planning on entering a science or engineering major when I go to college. I love pure science, astronomy and physics and chemistry intrigue me so much. but I understand most science degrees are absolutely useless in the job market and even with 10 years of education with a BS and PhD I will suffer horrible job prospects. As much as I would love a subject I do not want to be living in a trailer home. I don't think I care about money but I care about living.</p>

<p>On the other side, I cannot tell if engineering is right for me. I know I have yet to take engineering classes so IDK if I would actually like the material or not. However job descriptions of engineers are absolutely appalling to me.</p>

<p>Engineering sounds so capitalist, industrial, mechanical, manufactory. Process engineering, product quality, plants, equipment, production, systems, manufacturing ewww!!! These are all key words I find in job descriptions for engineers and I cannot see myself enjoying that at all. It brings up images of factories and power plants and oil rigs and office spaces. The names of companies that are hiring engineers sound like an old railroad company or a Colonial era-trading company.</p>

<p>I am not trying to sound inflammatory to anyone who appreciates engineering but I am having trouble seeing how I could possibly enjoy what an engineer does. I write this post with a lot of angst and confusion. I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or attempting to undervalue someone.</p>

<p>I read job descriptions for professors and research scientists but I have to always remember that I will never be in such a position one day. I read job descriptions for engineering and see it as a monotonous, capitalist, non-diverse field where I grind away into eternity with my predominately male coworkers. Computer Science doesn't seem much different, and my brother, a CS graduate, has told me he highly regrets his decision and wishes he majored in a more interesting field. He says his job is boring and he has only ever had boring jobs.</p>

<p>Medical school sounds pretty cool to me. Virology, radiology, neurology, microbiology. Unfortunately I am in no position to pay for that! oh well!</p>

<p>What about Public Health? Epidemiology, biostatistics, etc. It sounds interesting and stimulating to me, so I therefore conclude it is a dead-end field with no job prospects. Probably requires a Master's too where I will have to accumulate some juicy debt. If this is a myth, someone please chime in!</p>

<p>What exactly can engineering PhDs do? Is scientific research available to them for those who choose to do it? Do <em>violent cough</em> industry-employed engineering PhDs do different things I'd imagine not - it interests me so I assume it is hard to find.</p>

<p>I ask these questions because I have not been able to find any conclusive data from personal research. Articles and sources seem to vary so widely on how they present the job market for certain majors; I just want the raw truth.</p>

<p>I am probably "too young" to know what I want to do. However I do not know how I can bring myself do something that I find disgusting. Even if I enjoy the college classes I would prefer to look beyond graduation and see where the degree will take me. Science degrees are apparently the quickest way to be thrusted thousands of light years into the galactic core so I can be sucked away by a supermassive black hole. Engineering degrees are apparently the quickest way to drain all color out of the world as I listen to Expo markets sliding on white boards, attempting to hear (and I have pretty crappy hearing) my coworkers discuss something mechanical as the machines loudly crank out smoke in the background.</p>

<p>tl;dr
sorry, I have a knack for writing lengthy posts when I am confused or unhappy. I don't know how to approach my situation. I love math and science but its pure applications are dead ends, and engineering appears to be one of the most boring jobs on the planet. Irregardless of whether or not I will like the course material I prefer to consider what I will actually do. I wish everything I was interested in wasn't a meteoroid crashing down in between me and my future. </p>

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<p>It sounds like you were only looking into mechanical and chemical engineering positions. Engineering is very diverse. </p>

<p>I’m only a structural engineering (subset of civil engineering) intern, but my company builds high ways, bridges, some sewer work, railways, aka infrastructure. We focus on a vital part of society and help cities and communities immensely with our services. Bridges are also super cool in general. I mostly work in the office but every 1-2-5 years bridges need to be inspected and we have 4 guys who are out in the field walking around bridges all day to make sure they’re safe for the public (it’s super cool and fun imo). Structures are amazing, like the skeleton of every construction. </p>

<p>You have to realize that engineering is applied science. What do you want to do? </p>

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<p>I’m guessing you’re female then? I’m female too. Civil engineering is ~25% female in my school, but my department at work is more like 1/3 female. It’s really not bad at all. My male coworkers are very respectful, intelligent, mature, and all around awesome. </p>

<p>While structural engineering pretty much requires a masters now, most engineering degrees are fine with a BS. No PhD needed at all. </p>

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<p>And why do you feel this way? If it is something that interests you, put yourself in that position.</p>

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<p>A lot of engineering jobs are rather boring and monotonous. A lot of them aren’t. The frequency of the boring kind was a big part of the reason I decided to continue to graduate school, which opens up a lot of the more technical jobs. Also remember that even in pure research, it is still capitalist. After all, you have to be able to convince someone to fund you, and NSF doesn’t have infinite money.</p>

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<p>Note, most doctors who attend medical school learn the basics of these subjects and then apply that toward treating patients, not toward research on these subjects. In other words, medical practice is even more applied in nature than engineering. I really don’t think it sounds like your kind of thing based on this post.</p>

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<p>Whether or not a master’s degree requires large debt depends on the field and the school. In engineering, it is not uncommon to get a fully-funded master’s degree (though what percentage are funded varies by school and department). Public health, on the other hand, is likely to require you to pay full tuition, as it is typically a professional master’s program (the M.P.H.).</p>

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<p>Engineering Ph.D.s mostly do research. A few go into non-research positions, but most do, and honestly, if you didn’t get a Ph.D. for research, you probably shouldn’t have done a Ph.D. At the Ph.D. level, the line between science and engineering typically blurs. There are definitely people doing more applied research but there are those of us doing very basic things as well, sometimes just as basic as our brethren in physics departments. Industry-employed engineering Ph.D.s typically work in the R&D type departments and lead the R&D of new products. The degree to which this research is applied vs. fundamental varies, but it does tend to skew toward the applied. Generally, these jobs are a lot different than the jobs held by those with just a B.S. or an M.S. in engineering at the same companies.</p>

<p>Otherwise, Ph.D.s work in research in other settings, such as academia or national labs, both of which, again, can be quite basic in nature if desired.</p>

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<p>You shouldn’t have to convince yourself to do something you find disgusting. If you find something disgusting, then don’t do it, plain and simple. There really isn’t any more complexity necessary there.</p>

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<p>You have a skewed picture of what engineers do on a day-to-day basis. Sure there are some working on factory floors, but most don’t really step foot in a factory and are instead doing design work, often in an office. The whole point of engineering is to take the science and use it to create something new or better. Much of this work is done in labs and offices by engineers.</p>

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<p>That’s not a word.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with you. There is no magic in engineering or in science if you approach it as a job. I would challenge you to find excitement in working in the circus, TV, Movie production, or any job in the world. If you do not bring a spark to your work, it is all just pushing forward with what your boss tells you to do and being underpaid. Could you imagine being a lawyer and listening to whining clients and reading all those law cases for research for hours on end (or do you imagine it as a heroic journey as portrayed on TV)?</p>

<p>My point is, you really need to do what you love and not worry about the job or the money. In fact don’t even graduate from college if it is not helpful. Elizabeth Holmes did not. Bill Gates did not. Mark Zuckerberg did not. Larry Ellison did not. And they are all billionaires, whose riches stem from “technology”. The reason to go to college is to learn a way of being, a way of thinking, and/or (the beginnings of) a canon of knowledge that will start you down a path to a satisfying life, and will do so more efficiently than not going to college.</p>

<p>With recent advances, the ability for an individual to make and to do has increased tremendously. If learning how the world works and learning the tools to harness these laws for fun or profit holds no interest for you, don’t study it. The world continues to grow and advance. The creativity at the forefront- the Tesla electric car, LED lighting replacing the incandescent bulb, the Apple computer, even the pop-top on soda cans- all came from the discipline of engineering.</p>

<p>Bartleby the Scrivener works in every occupation; but so does Leonardo da Vinci. How you interact with your chosen field does not depend so much on the field you choose, but rather on your place in it. The ability to be an individual contributor and define, or choose, that place, plus the availability of the field that excites you may be more important to job satisfaction than the actual field. I would look at work that allows you some control over ways to contribute.</p>

<p>I would also look at websites for professional organizations (ASME, IEEE for example, for engineers) to find advice and job descriptions for entry-level positions within a field of endeavor.</p>

<p>Absolutely useless, horrible job prospects are not really what is out there for Science PhDs.</p>

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<p>Ctesiphon, where are you getting your information?</p>

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<p>Thank you for the informative replies. I’m in a better mood today so I am more receptive to your comments.</p>

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<p>I am a male, but one of the things that has irked me from engineering is the lack of diversity. I understand the same is true of science fields, but I am seeing more and more gender diversity in my science classes. I make lasting friendships with girls much easier than I do boys, and I’d rather not go into much further detail there.</p>

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<p>You’re right, I guess it is kind of impossible to leave the system… I suppose if I do end up in engineering, I’m sure there are plenty of jobs where I can design potato chips or missile launchers.</p>

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<p>Fair enough… My mom is pressuring me to do engineering but I am so uncertain whether or not that would be the right path. I would have to start engg. freshman year if I want to graduate in 4 years; I have no idea if I would succeed in that field… won’t have much time in college for much else since engg degree requirements are so strict. If I have to start engineering freshman year, I won’t be exposed to mid/upper-level classes if I decide engineering is not right for me and switch to a different degree. Feels like too much of a risk for something I could greatly regret later in life.</p>

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<p>Are engineers actually spearheading modern technology efforts in day to day life? I think I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like, even with the design work, I’m not really making anything lasting. It’s all temporary and fleeting, I don’t feel like I’d be remembered for designing a kickass lip balm or a genetically modified seed.</p>

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<p>For so many years have I used it and only now have I found out it doesn’t exist :frowning: :frowning: :frowning: :(</p>

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<p>“Are engineers actually spearheading modern technology efforts in day to day life?”. Engineers are behind the design, testing and analysis of pretty much anything you can think of. Cars, Planes, Computers, TVs, cell phones, electric power systems, pharmaceuticals, chapstick, GPS, missiles, and etc. That’s what the Engineering profession is. Similar to how Doctors work toward the common goal of improving health. There are Doctors for heart problems, ENT problems, allergies, denistry, optometry and etc. They all work toward the common goal of improving health. </p>

<p>Taken from Wikipedia:
“An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics, and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical, societal and commercial problems”</p>

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<p>Who else would be doing it? I suppose it depends on what you mean by “spearheading” here, but generally it is engineers doing the design work. Brand new technology will start as a theoretical research topic somewhere in a physics or engineering or mathematics or chemistry department at a university or national lab (or more commonly several of those). Which of those births the new technology depends on the nature of the technology. From there it will probably fall into more applied research projects at universities, national labs, and/or companies. Once it gets a little to being a marketable technology, companies then take the idea and work out how to actually put it together into something sellable, which can be a very technical or a very mundane process. Some companies keep more of this process in house than others while others farm most of it out, but this is the rough idea, anyway.</p>

<p>Engineers are involved in essentially every step of this process.</p>

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<p>Sorry - my question was a bit unclear, but your post answered exactly what I was looking for. On paper, I seem interested in the parts of the process you’ve outlined except the marketing aspect or adapting a product to industry demand. However, I am under the impression that it can be difficult to find work as an engineer in theoretical research fields or applied research projects at universities. </p>

<p>If it is necessary to get a PhD to conduct such work I will go through with it to the end, since as of now a career in engineering with a Bachelor’s doesn’t really appeal to me. </p>

<p>I think there’s a bigger thing I need to get over though. For some reason I cannot imagine myself employed at an actual, er, company. I feel uncomfortable or misplaced whenever I’ve visited corporate, manufactory places where engineers are employed. There was especially a certain Aerospace firm (I also hate the word firm) where our engineering-focused state school held an information session / reception. They had of older-ish engineers in “management” talk about about what they do. IDK - it all seemed kind of fake to me. My mom got mad at me after we left when I didn’t so gleefully discuss my interests in engineering with the CEO when he came around to ask.</p>

<p>I know many engineers may start out in the design process and can “move up” to management positions, but that sounds horrible to me, and I don’t want to ‘dislike’ what my career advancement would look like.</p>

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<p>There are career advancement tracks at most companies that don’t involve moving into management (at least not of the sort you describe). There are wholly technical career paths.</p>

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<p>There is great variety in engineering jobs. But generally speaking, Engineers are Problem Solvers. </p>

<p>For Engineering, I think the main concern is … will a student be able to endure all the intense, required courses in the major? Once graduated, there are many options. </p>

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<p>Don’t discount the possibility of moving from Physics or Chemistry to an engineering position or graduate program. It happens all the time and as others have said, at the Ph.D. level there is very little difference in what scientists and engineers do.</p>

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<p>It would be great if you could go to the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas in the new year. You could ask who did what in bringing a product out. There are some small companies, and some giants. You can see what an entrepreneurial engineer (with a BS, an MS or a PhD) looks like and thinks like, versus a rank-and-file member of the cadre of a large company. Peeking in on the large companies who can afford the time to host a bunch of visiting kids does not give a balanced view of the entire universe.</p>

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<p>My son chose engineering for pretty much all the same reasons you allude to - job security and a straight path to a middle class income. He is likely changing out of it a the end of sophomore year also for the same reasons you fear - some of the projects are interesting, but grinding away for hours on an uninteresting project in a room full of guys with questionable hygiene habits whom he doesn’t particularly like just does not fit him. </p>

<p>I do it all day every day and am OK with it. Today I am working on a simple part for a next generation aircraft but it requires hundreds of pages of writing and thousands of pages of reading (very boring FAA and Mil standards). I sit in a corner cubicle next to a guy who falls asleep and snores every afternoon (great guy, questionable hygiene at times).</p>

<p>NO WAY should you go into engineering if it does not fit your personality. Success is much more than money. Think about what you would like to study, then find what jobs would be available from that. How about Physics at an LAC with a 3-2 program? You could tell your parents you will be going to Dartmouth/Columbia for engineering after Physics, but could do what you love for 3 years.A friend just retired as a geologist with the USGS with a pension and lifetime medical. Science is not always a dead end, and engineering is not always the automatic job offer. </p>

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<p>A lot of young people have rather dreamy views of what science and engineering is all about. There’s nothing wrong with that either, but it is important to understand the reality of science and engineering before making decisions to become a scientist or engineer. The media and even a lot of schools often portray science and engineering in the best possible light, which tends to skew student expecations a bit. </p>

<p>That said though, there are jobs available out there that do offer what most kids envision science and engineering to be, which usually involves a purer, more academic style of work. Do keep in mind that these types of positions are usually highly sought after, and often require advanced degrees (with the purist, most academic-oriented jobs going to PhDs).</p>

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<p>@‌Magnetron</p>

<p>glad to see there is someone I can relate to. I think it may not be so much the content of engineering that I am appalled to, but as you say, more so the personality. I don’t feel like I have the personality to be an engineer. I’ve also found that most kids who intend to become engineers aren’t the kind of kids I like to hang around. Nothing against them, but we just touch on different areas.</p>

<p>@fractalmstr‌ </p>

<p>When I had first learned of how difficult it can be for science PhDs to find academia jobs I was honestly a bit surprised. I had figured, surely some of the smartest, hardworking people in the country would be able to find stable employment. (Not saying those who don’t have it aren’t smart or hardworking). I guess it makes sense though, when industry doesn’t demand pure science research. For example, I was surprised to find that there were so many more PhDs being awarded in astronomy then positions being opened for them. Surely there aren’t as many people spending 6 years of their life on a field as out-of-this-world as astronomy? Apparently not, but such is the truth.</p>

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<p>FWIW, the description given by @magnetron is one person’s experience. People I know don’t have that experience. Much of the exciting stuff is not public knowledge and cannot be publicly disclosed since it is proprietary. But the hardware and software projects going on at such places as Google-X, Motorola, Facebook, Apple, even the Defense Contractors, and tons of small businesses is fast-paced, first-principles-grounded, exciting work with enthusiastic fun coworkers. Maybe sustaining engineering at a National Lab, at Space-X or Tesla may be more rote and mundane?</p>

<p>I certainly would not want to talk you into doing anything you are not enthusiastic about, but be careful about buying into any individual worldview. When you have powerful tools and know how to leverage them, you are in a good position to influence your work experience. That is true in Engineering, Lawyering, script-writing, many lines of work. Find what fires up your passion and pursue it!</p>

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<p>@Ctesiphon‌ </p>

<p>The type of work that science PhDs get involved with interests a lot of people, especially students who are in high school. Naturally, when you head into a field that is very desirable, there is bound to be a lot of competition to get into a limited number of jobs. </p>

<p>Just because you choose to major in something that interests you doesn’t mean the economy is obligated to create a job for you. You have to find out where the demand is, decide whether or not working in that field interests you, and if it doesn’t, is it worth pursuing your dream major in spite of the risks involved?</p>

<p>None of this is said to discourage you from pursuing your dream career. In fact I believe strongly that you should follow your passions… just make sure you have a backup plan. @xraymancs‌ had a good point - physics and even math majors can qualify for engineering positions, which would be a reasonable backup plan should you decide to major in a science field.</p>

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<p>You should target academia or government research labs if you want to go with the science major. The only other options are essentially being a lab tech.</p>

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<p>@rhandco, do you mean life sciences? Pharma and biotech companies are hiring those. Physical sciences are also well represented in industry (Geophysics in petroleum, etc.). Clearly, OP could benefit from ferreting out some possibilities and trying to imagine himself in those roles, perhaps by job shadowing. Internships are good, too, but tend to give more of the entry-level view, and not the possibilities a few years in.</p>