Some midwest schools - comments

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi everyone.</p>

<p>I'm new to this board. Its a great resource. We are just getting started on my Ds college search. She will be a junior this year. 3.95 GPA, lots of ECs, very good PSATs and we will see what happens on her SAT. She is a student at a tiny Christian School in CA (70 students in HS).</p>

<p>She has some strong feelings about college:
Small school, but not too small 2,000 - 5,000 undergrads
Not sure of major but strong liberal arts focus
Desires a Christian College
Will live on campus and wants a lively atmosphere with a high % of students living on campus
Wants some overseas study integrated with her college education</p>

<p>D is focused on Wheaton from reading only. I am encouraging her to explore non Christian schools as well. Her high school has "open enrollent", non Christians can attend. I hope she ends up in an environment that is not too strict or liberal. I want her to be able to explore her faith in a tolerant atmosphere, where she can examine academic subjects while reflecting on the religious/ biblical implications. I would characterize our household as a progressive, Christian atmosphere where debate, discussion, and the pursuit of knowledge is valued. I suspect my D will be able to get into a decent school based on academics and ECs and, as a parent, my one demand is that the school be strong academically. D will decide on the rest with our guidance. The kid makes good decisions and is an independent thinker.</p>

<p>We live if the SF Bay Area and will be making our first college visits in the midwest. Likely candidates:</p>

<p>St. Olaf
Carleton
Wheaton
Hope (hard to find info/comments on this school)
Calvin</p>

<p>We have done some web research. Hope, Wheaton, and St. Olaf were identified from Colleges That Change Lives. Given the above, any comments on the schools?</p>

<p>From a life long Californian...should I be concerned about significant weather changes in looking at a time frame of mid October through mid November to schedula our visits? We will likely fly in at one place and drive to the various campuses...snow is just something I see on TV when the reception is bad!</p>

<p>Thanks for any assistance you might give.</p>

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<p>I just graduated from St. Olaf and from your description, it sounds like it's a perfect fit. It is a tremendous school and has very strong academic programs, notably math, biology, english, and music. It was a wonderful experience and while it is a religiously affiliated school, there is an air of open forum for discussion of faith and beliefs. You'll love the campus itself, it's simply gorgeous, especially in the fall. If you have any particular questions about the school feel free to ask, it's quite a hidden gem in the midwest.</p>

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<p>Hi Rhumbob, Welcome to CC. I don't know anything about the first two colleges except that they are highly ranked. The third, on your list, Wheaton College in Illinois, has a great reputation and is very hot currently. The top student in my grad department, many years ago, had done his undergrad at Wheaton (and yes, we had students from the ivies:-). A family member also works there and has nothing but good things to say about the college. The last two on your list are located in west Michigan - I have some familiarity with them. Hope, located in beautiful Holland, MI, is well known in MI, and I think reasonably-known nationally. It has a reputation for strong academics and is said to have a good premed program. I believe the science departments are quite well thought of - they are known to provide good research opportunities for undergrads. I am not sure if you are looking for an evangelical Christian college. In my mind, Hope is not one. I don't think you can put it in the same category as Wheaton, with respect to taking an evangelical stance. I think you would find the faculty at Hope more liberal than Wheaton - just my opinion. Calvin is in Grand Rapids, MI, and as you might know is a Christian Reformed college. I went there for a year about 25 years ago and then transferred out because it just wasn't the right place for me. I know many people who have graduated from Calvin and have had wonderful experiences. I think about 50% of the students are from the the Christian Reformed denomination. Many kids (especially with a Dutch heritage) who come from the Christian schools in west Michigan go to Calvin. I have heard that they have a good math department now. I think if I had to pick the more academically strong college, between Hope and Calvin, I would pick Hope (based totally on hearsay, I am afraid). You are going to find very little diversity in both Hope and Calvin. I only remember seeing 1 or 2 African-Americans at Calvin, 25 years ago. I sure hope things have changed. I think the college visits will tell you a lot. Talk to as many people (especially out-of-state students) as you can. Twenty-five years ago, I found Calvin to be very cliquey - since most of the students had a common background (Dutch, Christian Reformed, and from local Christian schools). Have you thought about Taylor University in Indiana?</p>

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<p>One of the things to consider is how conservative of a Christian school are you comfortable with? St. Olaf, while Christian, is not very conservative, whereas I believe Wheaton teaches creationism to its students (much more conservative). And if I remember right, Wheaton requires the faculty to believe in creationism.</p>

<p>We did a "semi-visit" to St. Olaf and Carleton this summer because we were in the area visiting relatives. In fact, while in Minneapolis we attended the wedding of my cousin who is a St. Olaf graduate. St. Olaf is indeed, a clean, pleasing campus, with lots of limestone. It was a Sunday afternoon in July when we were there, and no one was around, so we just walked through campus, went into the chapel (which is left open), and hubby played the organ there (again, left open). The kids enjoyed sitting in the new oversized chairs under the windchimes in a sort of gazebo like structure on the path in front of the chapel. We went into Northfield for lunch. I really liked Northfield, a very charming small town, and only about 30 min. drive from Minneapolis. We bought a CD of the Limestones (St. Olaf Men's accapella group) at a gift shop, and we've listened to it in the car many times in the past month--it's really great. One of the songs on the CD is "I ate Cream of Wheat in a Malt-o-meal town." (Northfield has a Malt-o-meal factory). </p>

<p>It was really hot when we were there, and the little one (six years old) had a meltdown on the St. Olaf campus because of the heat, so we decided to just drove by Carleton, but then saw this amazing sculpture made of twigs--like a bunch of crazy twig huts joined together. The kids revived for a while and had a good time exploring it. It was called "Twigonometry." </p>

<p>One of the things that impressed me at my cousin's wedding was the amazing bond he made with two of his roommates at St. Olaf. They were groomsmen in the wedding party. They are still close friends many years after graduation (I forget how many years, exactly, but 15 or more. . .) I would love for my kids to make long lasting friends like that in college.</p>

<p>My son applied to St. Olaf and though he ended up choosing another school, it would have been a great choice for him, I think (he is strongly interested in math and music). He says that one of the experts on Knot theory is at St. Olaf. They do seem to have a very strong math program. Another program that looked intereting there is something called "great conversations" which an honors program, open to a small group of students and seems a little like the core curriculum at UChicago--and I think the group in the program rooms together and takes a series of courses together (I may be wrong--it's been while now since S was looking at the school). </p>

<p>I'm going to try to persuade my D (a current jr. in high school) to take a good look at St. Olaf. (And also Grinnell--H and I were really impressed by Grinnell--another school that my S applied to but did not attend).</p>

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<p>I agree that St. Olaf sounds great. Just a question before I make other suggestions - are Catholic colleges under consideration?</p>

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<p>If she wants a Christian College, or even one where "Christian values" are mainstream, she should probably drop Carleton. The student body is pretty liberal there.</p>

<p>That said, the other schools are all excellent. My daughter looked at St. Olaf, although we didn't visit in the end, and we both liked what we saw. It is one of the few larger LACs out there. As already noted, the academics are terrific at St. Olaf as well. An aside: St. Olaf admissions is reputed to be working very hard to attract out of state students to broaden their geographic reach, which might factor in favorably a bit for your daughter. On the other hand, I have also heard that because their male-female ratio is heavily skewed towards females, males get a bit of an admissions boost. I once looked at a breakdown of student stats broken down by male-female that seemed to confirm this.</p>

<p>I have looked at Hope a bit and know that they have wonderful science programs. More of their students participate in undergraduate research than at many other schools, including many research universities.</p>

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<p>Oh, and as to the weather: my daughter is a southern California baby who puts on a winter coat when the temperature dips into the 70's. She is primarily applying to midwestern schools. She believes she will adjust (stop laughing mom!). We'll see.</p>

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<p>Thank you for your responses.</p>

<p>Christian / conservative / liberal can be loaded terms. Maybe I'm trying to say tolerant of Christian beliefs and open to discussion. Spirituality is not passed off as myth and ignored/discouraged/berated outside of a formal religion class. By the same token, Wheaton teaching creationism as an origin of species theory is fine, as long as they don't ignore evolutionary theory and scientific data and don't ignore/discourage/berate these ideas. Ideally college should encourage the pursuit of ideas and build critical thinking skills...I wouldn't want my D stuck in a situation that was intolerant of any flavor of thought.</p>

<p>Schools operating under a particular denomination are fine as long as they are tolerant to ideas outside of that denomination's teachings. For that matter, a school that is considered liberal can be very tolerant of spiritual life and exploration. For some reason today popular culture doesn't recognize progressive Christians or spiritual liberals...I guess they have to paint in black or white.</p>

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<p>I would check out Carleton if you are going to be looking at St. Olaf. (because they are in the same town, not because they are the same <em>feel</em>)I really hate to see broad generalizations used on the board. There are many schools that seem to get reputations here, and only a visit can really determine if your child will be comfortable or not. My kids both changed their minds dramatically after visiting campuses. They are much different in person, than through another's eyes.</p>

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<p>I am not Christian but actually Jewish so my knowledge is through friends of my D's who were interested in Christian Colleges. D has friends headed off to Seattle Pacific, Westmont, Pepperdine. Also for some strange reason Gordon College in Mass. is really popular with the Christian kids in our town. (small coastal city in Ca). I would assume from these kids they are strong christian schools with a modern Calvary Chapel kind of base.
Sorry didn't realize you were looking at midwest.</p>

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<p>I was just about to post same :) ... if you are considering Wheaton (IL) you might also want to look into Gordon College in Wenham, MA. <a href="http://www.gordon.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gordon.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Centre, Allegheny, Muhlenberg, Whittenberg, Hanover - these seem to be mainstream protestant but all are very nice and maybe they would be ok. Good luck in your search - such an exciting time!</p>

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<p>D is looking for much the same enviroment (MOR and accepting of MOR Christians) and she enjoyed her visit to Cornell College in Iowa. I have personally quizzed the administration at William Jewell outside Kansas City as to their open-mindedness and D thought enough of their response (which I believe I saved) to visit (before ultimately deciding it was not for her). Valparaiso and Hanover come to mind in Indiana. If you are willing to open the midwest up a little I can slip Centre, Rhodes, , in Ky. and Tn. in there,too (as I try to in every post;)). Any other parameters you want to throw at us?</p>

<p>ohio_mom, good choices.LOL. Great minds and all that.</p>

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<p>Ohio-mom, it's Wittenberg (not with the h) for someone who goes looking...my alma mater! Although it is supported by ELCA, it is, in fact, non-sectarian. I'm not sure about now, but when my hubby and I attended in the mid 70's there was a religion class requirement: I (who was Catholic) took East Asian Religions. My hubby (who is Jewish) took Hindu religion. Pretty darn tolerant. My sister also went to Wittenberg. We all loved it!</p>

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<p>The unasked question: What about Hillsdale (MI)?? That's what comes to my mind first for the midwest.</p>

<p>There are many more farther east:</p>

<p>Furman (SC), which looks like it might be one of my son's safeties, really impressed us. Baptist affiliation, but definitely not "mandatory religion." Dry campus, but that's as far as it goes. This sounds like it might strike a good balance for you and your daughter. Very interesting program for study abroad, and every student is encouraged to go. It does not have to be related to one's major. Furman people are all involved from beginning to end, and there is no separate cost (You pay Furman tuition, it's covered). There's no handing off of students to foreign universities. Merit aid.</p>

<p>Grove City College (PA) is a real $ bargain, but heavier on the religious aspect, and it's really snowy there :) Other than that, I don't know much about it except that it has a serious liberal arts core.</p>

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<p>rhumbob - I can comment on your planned visit to Northfield. It's exciting that your D, as a CA resident, is strongly considering midwest schools. There are so many fabulous, extremely reputable, strong academic schools overlooked in this region by those on the coasts. My D attends Carleton. We live in Washington State (and I was raised in CA). Don't worry about the weather - CA kids adapt quickly and have the opportunity to participate in new activities that will be very different from what is available at home (ice skating, sledding on cafeteria trays, broomball, cross-country skiing on campus/arb, etc.). An October/November visit should be perfect for your D to be introduced to the lowering temps and possible inclement weather. She'll see how kids dress at that time of year and how busy the campus will be despite whatever weather you encounter. I wouldn't worry about driving - all the roads are flat and cleared off quickly. I've visited each of the last two years in October and in February, and have never had a problem navigating from Minneapolis to Northfield.</p>

<p>St. Olaf strongly fits your criteria. Mstee's post nicely described its campus. It is located on the only "hill" in Northfield. There are 3000 students there as opposed to the 2000 at Carleton. 5,000 students in Northfield brings the population of the quaint small town to 17,000 (not so small). Study abroad programs at St. Olaf are excellent and plentiful. Super choral groups. Very nice athletic facilities. My D ran at several indoor track meets at St. Olaf. Large, newer student center. You didn't mention your D's academic interests, but they have a very strong math program (I have attended statistics workshops there and met some amazingly talented profs). The campus is dry, so the kids who want to party hearty find their way to Carleton.</p>

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<p>Oops, quiltguru, sorry I added an H to your Halma Mhater - should be <a href="http://www.wittenberg.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wittenberg.edu/&lt;/a> so nobody gets misplaced!</p>

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<p>D and I visited St. Olaf in Feb. I posted info on another thread -- will try to remember where -- could be music, could be elsewhere! Other posters have provided good info about St. Olaf. D is not looking for "church schools" -- in fact, was leary of them but loved St. Olaf and will apply this fall. Another school that gets little attention on these boards is Illinois Wesleyan in Bloomington, IL. It is also a church school but not as theologically conservative/fundamentalist as Wheaton. You might want to look at their website. Their stats are good and it is now on D's short list. I know they have a strong music program which is why D is applying there but my guess is that they have other academic strengths that someone else may know more about. Good luck!</p>

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<p>You may want to consider UChicago. Though not a Christian school, it has a very well respected theology and classics programs, so religion is not alien to the campus. I would recommend a visit to campus.</p>

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<p>I apologize in advance if I step on anyone's toes. I just want to raise an issue which I think is important.</p>

<p>I've never visited Wheaton and I'm not an Evangelical Protestant. However, two young women from our neighborhood attend. They are very, very happy there. However, I get the sense that there is tremendous pressure to marry or at least be engaged before graduation. Apparently, the students, especially the girls, are repeatedly told that it is important that they marry another "Christian" --by which they mean only Evangelical Protestants--and that Wheaton is a unique opportunity to be in an environment in which all the males are known to be potential "Christian" spouses. They will never again be in an environment in which they can be assured that every young man who asks them out will be a good "Christian." </p>

<p>When a couple gets engaged, there's some special bell on campus that is rung to announce the engagement and everyone joins in the celebration--not just in the sense that two young people they know and like are getting married, but because two "Christians" are marrying each other. The bell is NOT rung if someone gets engaged to anyone who is a NOT a Wheaton student or graduate. </p>

<p>Now, I'm just basing this on what I've heard from these two young women--who as I said like the place--but I just came away with the sense that there's enormous pressure to be engaged before graduation day. </p>

<p>This is not unique to Wheaton; it's apparently typical of such colleges. (At another one, students who marry each other before graduation receive a 25% discount on tuition. ) </p>

<p>If I'm somehow misunderstanding, feel free to straighten me out...but I really walked away feeling that it would be pretty tough to be one of the young women who did not get matched up --and given the female/male ratio, there are obviously a lot of young women who are not going to hear the bell ring for them. </p>

<p>Moreover, as someone who feels that a year or two of work after college is advisable before anyone marries, I was disconcerted by what I heard. </p>

<p>Again, if my impression is incorrect, feel free to correct it. It's just based on talking to these students. It may or may not be a matter of concern to the OP.</p>