Some notes on "prestige" and "fit"

Prep School Admissions
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<p>HADES & GLADCHEMM & Bears, oh my! At the request of a parent poster on another thread, I offer..</p>

<p>A bit on FIT.</p>

<p>I have been lurking CC since last fall, when we began our boarding school application process. As a parent of a boarding school freshman, I thought our experience might be helpful:</p>

<p>Our DD, a top scholar, accomplished musician, steeped in community service, 99th percentile SSAT (99th English/Verbal, 95th Math, 99th overall). Some quirky stats: Stellar 6th & 7th grade at small private middle school; homeschooled for 8th (and earlier, 3rd & 4th). Applied at age 12 (to be 13 in 9th grade, skipped 5th). Needed substantial FA (more than 50%).</p>

<p>Since we live in New England and were homeschooling, a great deal of our fall 2012 was dedicated to school visits. Having exhausted the very few options in our rural area, we were VERY CONCERNED WITH FIT. </p>

<p>Did I mention that schools with A Good Fit were important? </p>

<p>I did say FIT, I think.</p>

<p>Can I stress that enough? We knew our dd was a good, even excellent candidate for HADES or GLADCHEMM or name-your-acronym. But she had very specific wants, not the least of which was either a stellar orchestral program AND/OR access to a well-regarded regional youth orchestra... IN ADDITION TO the high-level academics she craved. SO... after visiting a baker's dozen schools, she applied to 8 in NE/NJ and, while everyone told us "oh, she'll get into everywhere, she's amazing, who wouldn't want her," we knew it just was not going to be.</p>

<p>That said, we were (and she was) very, very happy with the results. Here's the breakdown of visits, apps, acceptances, with my very general comments, which are purely a parent's POV.</p>

<p>Schools we visited and interviewed at (because while we were touring, it was worth it not to make a second trip, even if dd didn't apply):</p>

<p>Andover - didn't like sprawling campus or remote music dept.; didn't apply
Blair - liked it very much, liked the vibe though not the remoteness; applied
Choate - found it intimidating, off-putting but applied because of music concentration
Concord - liked the vibe and arts offerings, proximity to music schools; applied
Emma Willard - the last school she looked at, very impressed; applied
Exeter - had a great friend there; loved the idea of PEA; applied
Groton - didn't care for the structure/perceived rigidity; didn't apply
Hotchkiss - liked music director, classics concentration; applied
Kent - loved the town, underwhelmed by the school facilities, opportunities; didn't apply
Lawrenceville - underwhelmed in comparison to NE schools; didn't apply
Middlesex - loved English program, music would be outside and a stretch; applied anyway
Milton - liked it, especially proximity to Boston and its music offerings; applied
Northfield Mt. Hermon - liked it but didn't like block system; didn't apply
Peddie - liked it but music dept. not high-level enough; didn't apply</p>

<p>And of the schools she applied to, the breakdown follows. As a parent, I was unsurprised; the best FIT schools for HER were the ones she got into AND the ones that offered the most FA:</p>

<p>Blair - Accepted
Choate - Not Accepted
Concord - Accepted
Emma Willard - Accepted
Exeter - Accepted
Hotchkiss - Not Accepted
Middlesex - Waitlisted (she declined)
Milton - Waitlisted (she declined)</p>

<p>To narrow it down further, she decided to revisit only two of the four schools she was accepted to: Emma Willard and Exeter. Two VERY different schools. And the winner was?</p>

<p>Emma Willard.</p>

<p>In addition to a FA package more generous than PEA's, Emma really had it all for our dd—from community vibe to academic offerings to the music experience she craves. She is now a freshman there and we all believe it is absolutely the best FIT for her: she is engaged academically in an environment where everyone wants to learn; she is in her school orchestra AND a regional youth orchestra; she loves her teachers, the new challenges and the school staff; and she has time to study, practice her music, and spend time with friends. And she is making wonderful friends.</p>

<p>The moral of the story? HADES isn't everything. Even for the 'top of the top' student -- and many of you out there may find that broadening your search might not only improve your chances, but might provide you with options that would, in the end, be at least as good a FIT.</p>

<p>Also, some comments about Financial Aid:</p>

<p>I've read a lot of posts suggesting that some, or even many, apply to HADES particularly because they offer generous financial aid. While it is true that these schools are well endowed, so are many, many others. In terms of total endowment or per-student endowment, some smaller schools and many "hidden gems" are more generous; in some cases, though schools suggest that merit is not the deciding factor for FA, it can certainly influence a school's final FA award. And the algorithms are different, even given the same info from the PFS. </p>

<p>In our family's case, we were offered relatively generous FA from all the schools we considered. But in the end PEA's offer, though generous, was NOT the MOST generous of those we received, even factoring in PEA's relatively lower tuition and some of their benefits for FA studentsÂ…again, all schools had the same info from our PFS. </p>

<p>Schools like Exeter, Andover and Choate receive many, many applications from families with great need, and if a high percentage of them are accepted (especially in schools with need-blind admissions), middle-income families sometimes don't receive as much as they'd like or as they feel they need. In our family's case, we expected to pay for school, but with one freelance income and one income dependent on overtime, there was a certain financial limit beyond which we felt it would be too risky to accept.</p>

<p>All this to say, HADES are not the only well-endowed schools with genrous FA out there, and many other schools have special scholarships for merit, or foreign students, or any number of initiatives. </p>

<p>Fit can mean so many different things, as we learned along the way. Best of luck to you all in your search.</p>

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<p>@girlgeekmom,</p>

<p>I love reading your family’s story—I read it 3 times already! </p>

<p>Fit is upmost in my mind now as we research boarding schools for GMTson2. S2 is his own person and does not want to default to the boarding school GMTson1 is attending. </p>

<p>S1 landed his school choice in a haphazard way and had a bit of a rough start because he had to learn how to fit into the school. S1 LOVES his school and is thriving now (no regrets!), but we wonder if he would be there had we had more awareness of the issue of “fit” when he went thru the school selection process. </p>

<p>FIT is a lot more than whether your SSAT scores meet the school’s average…</p>

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<p>@GMT,</p>

<p>Thanks, I’ve been lurking CC for so long I figured it was time to pay back… or pay it forward… Funny about the fit issue; many of the young people who post on these boards don’t seem to actually consider it… they are too enamored of SchoolA or SchoolB. But parents on the boards seem a bit more willing to look at it from all sides.</p>

<p>I agree that FIT is NOT simply about SSAT scores, grades, etc. Especially as the parent of a kid for whom all those bases were “covered.”</p>

<p>I think of our DD’s experience with MX. On paper, she could have been everything they were looking for, and she interviewed well and was enthusiastic about the school. But <em>I</em> didn’t think she’d get in (not even WL, which she was), in no small part because she made it abundantly clear that her passion was violin, and that she wanted to play in an orchestra. MX has the most limited instrumental program of all the schools to which she applied, and no orchestra. She would have had to commute to Cambridge or Boston to find what she needed for music. IMO it would not have been a good fit, even if she had been accepted. Tellingly, all the schools to which she was accepted had much stronger music programs.</p>

<p>Ironically, based, it must have been, on SSAT info, Loomis pursued her fairly steadily. We were clear from the outset that L-C would NOT have been a good fit. She didn’t want to attend any school that was in any way “jock-y”.</p>

<p>Something to keep in mind:
The schools know where else you’re applying; it’s part of the application. I thought it was a really good thing – you wouldn’t want your child in a school that was a poor fit, just because he or she was impressed with the campus, or the tour guide, etc. (as was the case for us at MX). And schools want students who will thrive in their environments. I was impressed in every case with the admissions process and systems (except, I’ll admit, for Choate’s awful admissions website, which was hands down the hardest to navigate and enter text into).</p>

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<p>On the topic of prestige. Prestige is over-rated.</p>

<p>Truth be told, outside of New England, nearly no one is familiar with any of the boarding schools and couldn’t tell the difference between Phillips Andover and Phillips milk of magnesia…</p>

<p>GMTson goes to an ACRONYM school, but when we mention the name to people, we just get blank expressions.</p>

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<p>LOVE it!!! Even in NE, after Exeter, unless you are in an area where lots of kids go to BS (and we’re not), not too many people know about the schools. </p>

<p>Having gone to a “prestigious” college in my day (a 7-sister school), I remember plenty of blank stares when I mentioned the name. And that school was definitely not a good fit for me. And since our dd was in the “best” schools in our area (which simply didn’t do it for her), we were highly skeptical about considering only “prestigious” schools when it came to her needs and wants for high school. </p>

<p>We understood at the outset that an ACRONYM school might be best, or might not. So we looked at, well, all but SPS and DA. Because we didn’t want to rule them out without at least having a good look. After revisit days, we were very happy with our selection. Could Geeklet have thrived at PEA? probably. But she didn’t see herself <em>living</em> there ("I could go to school here, but don’t see living in this community)—and since 3 hours is a <em>bit</em> of a commute, she went with her gut, and is happy to be where she is—AND, equally importantly, she’s getting what she wants and needs out of school.</p>

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<p>GMTplus7, too funny re:Phillips!</p>

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<p>Prestige and fit…this is a challenging subject. We are in the small minority that turned down a top school. The choice was unanimous for our family, and we are still very happy two years into it. We found our fit elsewhere.</p>

<p>But once a high prestige school has chosen you, it can be hard to turn them down. In particular, the schools with marketing savvy throw everything they’ve got at you once you’re accepted. You now represent “yield”</p>

<p>Prepare to be told that you will “regret your decision not to accept their admission offer for the rest of your life”, that NO ONE with any sense turns them down, that unparalleled opportunities exist there, you are just too dense/naive/uneducated/unfamiliar to realize the benefits. The huge gift box with school clothing that arrives with acceptance, the handwritten personal congratulation notes from your friendly admissions officer who know exactly what you want to hear (from combing your file), the carefully selected current students and parents who call, the ice cream, cocktail parties and talent show thrown for you on revisit days. You are, after all, the best of the best, and should join the ranks. </p>

<p>A small suggestion - take a step back, as the OP did, as some of us do, and carefully consider fit. The hardest part of some schools is surprisingly not getting in; it’s flourishing, growing and graduating. In the end, YOU are responsible for finding your fit. PRESTIGE does not ensure fit.</p>

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<p>I might also point out that, as former homeschoolers, we were as interested in the issues of flexibility in the schools as well. We did NOT want to be involved in dc’s high school education (and she didn’t want us to). Despite being homeschoolers, we are not “helicopter” parents. Our homeschooling “philosophy” was based on desperation, rather than dogma. But with a highly able academician who is also a serious musician, we wanted to look a little farther ahead: Would there be difficulty down the road if our dc chose to attend outside music programs such as those offered by conservatories or regional youth orchestras? Was there independent study if our dc wanted to pursue a particular academic direction before college (assuming, of course, she met all other school requirements). We found ourselves highly suspicious of schools at which we were told (usually sniffily), “no, because our school offers XYZ at a level that makes it unnecessary to add external programs or independent study.”—without their actually knowing an individual student and his or her strengths/passions, that seemed like a rather sweeping generalization to us.</p>

<p>We found that some of the larger schools were less flexible than some of the smaller ones. And that many of the ACRONYM schools were convinced that their way was the only way (ironic, since “their way” differed from one ACRONYM to the next). Having been bitten on the “fit” issue in the past (in our local day school experiences), we spent a lot more time considering fit than probably anything else (in our situation, EVERY school on our list offered academics and ECs at a level that is so far above what exists locally that the academic issue was, well, academic).</p>

<p>@2prepMom, I had to laugh reading about the high prestige schools choosing you. OY-- the flattery. And the pressure. And who knew schools would send holiday cards? Seriously? It could send an over-thinking applicant and his or her parents off the deep end!</p>

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<p>Fit can cut two ways, however.</p>

<p>We just came back from parents weekend at Exeter and are absolutely convinced that this is the absolute best place for our son, who is a prep. The obvious engagement he showed in his classes, the fun evident in his face as he was discussing things in virtually all his classes, the great group of friends he is developing, the obvious admiration for his teachers, and finally his evident desire for us to be on our way by Monday so he could get back to his new life, all make us certain this is where he belongs.</p>

<p>Our son is very independent and confident, very organized, and quite immune to needing external reassurance or validation. I think this is a big reason why Exeter is such a good fit for him. </p>

<p>We did not look at any other boarding schools so we can not convincingly say that X is better than Y, or that there might or might not be some place which MIGHT be better for him, although this is hard to picture. </p>

<p>We also did not get any sense of “don’t make a tragic mistake and turn us down.” We did feel that a sense of opportunity, maybe even great opportunity, was presented , but never was there anything to make us think that there was any message of superiority, condescension to other other choices, or arrogance. In fact i would we have felt the opposite, that their is an enormous respect paid to the merit of individual choice and each student needing to follow the path which is best for them. </p>

<p>Being an ACRONYM school does not make it a bad choice for some kids, nor does it make all the kids who apply or attend suspect in their motives. Unfortunately, there are those who may choose to apply or attend for the wrong reasons, but that is not a problem unique to certain, popularly construed as elite, boarding schools. </p>

<p>Each kid will find their niche at a different place.</p>

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<p>@kidsparent, I absolutely agree that being an ACRYONYM school does not make it a bad choice for some kids. It’s just that many of the posters on the CC forums seem to have tunnel vision about “the road to HADES.” </p>

<p>At my dc’s school, I know from speaking with several other parents at revisit day that they were also considering at least one ACRONYM school to which their daughter had been accepted. For these parents and students, single-sex education was also part of the decision mix (even for those of us for whom the idea had been fairly neutral at the outset…).</p>

<p>Among the schools our dd was accepted to was PEA. And while everyone’s experience will vary, we found their revisit day to be a much more “hard sell” experience than we’d expected. It was not what swayed our decision; we got what was going on—but spending the day apart from our student (and to split up as parents so as to maximize tours/class visits) also allowed us to share a wider range of impressions.</p>

<p>In our estimation, that particular ACRONYM school seemed fabulous. Just not fabulous enough to balance what all three of us felt were the “downsides.” </p>

<p>Again, it comes down to fit. The kid or two we know at PEA are REALLY happy they’re there, despite whatever stresses they may encounter. It just wasn’t the place for us, despite looking like it “on paper.”</p>

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<p>That doesn’t surprise me that much actually girlgeekmom. I wouldn’t see Exeter as a good fit, even on paper, for a child as passionate about music as yours is. There are terrific opportunities for music at Exeter, but I don’t think it gets the kind of emphasis you were looking for. Kidsparent’s child sounds more like the typical great fit for Exeter. </p>

<p>Can’t speak to the hard sell as we didn’t make it to revisit days. It sounds like EW is a great spot for your child though. I spent a year in all-girls school, and it was a life-changer for me! Good for you for seeing through the acronym hype.</p>

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<p>@kidsparent: The ACRONYM schools didn’t get to enjoy their status as “elite” by offering a subpar product for as long some of them have been in business. I don’t dispute that they are great schools…and despite being a “Look wider than HADES, kids” parent advocate on the board, I don’t think I’ve ever characterized any of them as offering a bad education. Parents whose kids attend one of these fine institutions should not feel like they have to defend the schools or their family’s choice of school.</p>

<p>I liken the ACRONYM schools to the Yankees (which happens to be the baseball team I root for). They have a consistently great product that will always have a huge fan base. Their reputation/ticket sales are not going to suffer one bit by fans who root for the Tigers or Giants. To continue the metaphor, it’s also pretty easy to take jabs at the Yankees…what with their massive payroll and brand-name players.</p>

<p>My goal in advocating for the non-ACRONYMs is to show new-to-the-process kids/parents that there are totally viable and valid alternatives to the ACRONYM schools. Schools that candidates may have a better chance of getting admitted to, and schools which may be actually be a better fit.</p>

<p>I really don’t think that most prospective students realize that some kids who get admitted to one (or more) of these super-selective “household-name-in-certain-households” schools sometimes do not choose that path. Really stinking smart and talented kids, too…</p>

<p>I personally think that message can’t be repeated enough. Just take a look a the chance me threads and tell me how many kids have Exeter on their short list compared to Emma Willard (even if you only count the girls).</p>

<p>To put it another way, I don’t think the ACRONYM schools don’t really need any extra press. They already get the most apps as it is. Me telling the story of how my daughter chose St. Andrew’s over St. Paul’s isn’t going to put anyone off applying to St. Paul’s. Nor is the OP’s story going to dissuade anyone from applying to Exeter. However, if either results in just one family considering a non-ACRONYM school, getting admitted (with however much aid they need) and having a great experience…well, that’s not a bad outcome, is it?</p>

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<p>@ classicalmama - you nailed it. But we had been told so much good stuff about PEA’s music program, and since it’s a fairly easy train ride to Boston (and thus NEC or BYSO, which are weekend programs), we thought it might be worth looking at, since top-notch academics were also an important factor. For parents of a serious musician, aside from arts-specific schools like Interlochen and Idyllwild, NO school’s orchestra (despite what the music director at Choate would have us believe) can compete with a really good regional youth symphony. The pool of musicians is simply too small. </p>

<p>Of course, the majority of prep school applicants probably do not have such a very specific list of “wants” as we did. And the orchestras at many of the ACRONYM schools really are quite good, for a musician for whom orchestra will always be an EC. Since we really were starting from a base of absolutely NO knowledge, we did quite a bit more exploring of schools than many families might be able to stomach :wink: — and of course, as homeschoolers, we had both the flexibility to really pour our energies into the search, and the attitude that we were not willing to compromise. Bad school fit up until high school was how we’d ended up homeschooling in the first place, and none of us saw it as the best solution for our dd in the long run.</p>

<p>@ SevenDad - despite your sadly misguided choice of baseball teams (let’s go Mets! J), your reiteration of my original point that, especially for new-to-the-process parents, not just casting a wider net, but truly thinking about what their child wants and needs during their high-school years (not just academically, but socially, or in terms of their passions in sports or the arts, etc.) is an approach worth considering.</p>

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<p>That should have said “I don’t think the ACRONYM schools really need any extra press.”!</p>

<p>Serves me right for posting late after a long day on a business trip!</p>

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<p>This is a great topic. I agree 100% that finding the right fit for each student is paramount. And it is not easy to tell which school is the best fit without visiting them (twice if possible)! Our daughter is an Exeter prep this year and I could’ve written Kidsparent’s post word-for-word. Having just returned from Parents’ Weekend we witnessed what the right fit can mean for a kid. She is definitely in the right school…for her. </p>

<p>Having said that, we also have an eleven year old son who wishes to apply to BS in several years. He joined us last weekend at Exeter and he thoroughly enjoyed it…said he wants to apply. However, my instincts tell me that Exeter probably isn’t the best fit for him (assuming he were even accepted-which is a long shot for any kid). He and his sister are both bright and motivated kids, but they are also very different in terms of personality, strengths, weaknesses, etc. </p>

<p>Time will tell, but my gut tells me that there is a better (better fit) school out there for him.</p>

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<p>And different options altogether. My son number 2 is opting for a year of studying abroad, followed (we think) by a mix of early college and public high school. Boarding school was such a great choice for our oldest, but different kids flourish in different settings.</p>

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<p>Absolutely, classicalmama. We know so many bright, talented kids who’ve chosen different paths, including early college. I think it depends on how independent a student is (or is willing to become), and the family’s comfort level with different approaches. In our neck of the woods, for example, homeschooling for academic excellence is not uncommon, and perceived by most as a viable school alternative (though many would say they couldn’t do it themselves). Our far-flung relatives and some of our friends in other states (areas with educational options) used to think we were crazy for even considering it, let alone actually pursuing it!</p>

<p>That said, many of those same people think we are similarly nuts for sending a 13-year old to boarding school ;-)</p>

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<p>Girlgeekmom- I totally appreciate your comments on “fit,” and I know several students who are blissfully happy at Emma Willard. I have to ask though…have you ever heard the Choate orchestra play? They are spectacular. In past years, they have played at the White House, Lincoln Center, and toured Europe. Unless you live in a major area like Boston or New York, I find it hard to believe that a regional youth orchestra would even come close. I have a child who tried both, and there was no comparison.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Blows me away every time, and I’m quite partial to a couple of well-known city orchestras.</p>

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<p><<no school’s="" orchestra="" (despite="" what="" the="" music="" director="" at="" choate="" would="" have="" us="" believe)="" can="" compete="" with="" a="" really="" good="" regional="" youth="" symphony.="">></no></p>

<p>@ggk, bs and cm: Yes. Mr. Ventre has gone out of his way to select kids who are as good if not better than any regional youth symphony. I heard it’s his last year. The school will sorely miss him.</p>