Some thoughts on the application process and parental involvement

<p>I have been reading this board with much interest off and on for the past few years, and like quite a few of the other posters/readers, now have a D who is in the process of applying to colleges. She posted some questions on this board in the beginning, but has since moved on, because she felt it was more a "parent oriented forum".</p>

<p>One thing that keeps popping into my mind is how much or how little parents should be involved, because I wonder if I my approach is too hands off and if I am short-changing my child in the process. </p>

<p>Here is where she is at so far:
Together we have looked at the many different schools and identified some good fits including reaches & safeties etc., taking into consideration her strenghts and weaknesses. She put together file folders for each of the schools she liked, made an overview of all the things she liked about the school and stapled that on the front, and then has asked me to print out detailed information for each school's audition process, and she gave me a heads up (actually asked me if I could help her) when we have to make travel arrangements. My D is doing all of the applications herself, including the follow up with her counselor, selecting and briefing recommenders, putting together packets for them etc. So far she has done I think 6 applications. During the week she she goes to school, and at night she rehearses for a show outside of school. To give you a complete picture, she takes AP classes, is actively involved with extra-curricular programs at school and spends time in leadership roles as well. All in all, that really only leaves her the weekends (when there is no rehearsal) and she seems to have done just fine doing things on her own.</p>

<p>I realize that for everyone things are different, but shouldn't our kids do the bulk of the application work themselves? If they are ready to go off to college and this is the field they want to major in, shouldn't they be somewhat ready to "juggle" their schedules and experience time management? </p>

<p>Again, she has not complained, but I am beginning to somehow feel guilty that I am way behind the eight ball...</p>

<p>I think it's great your D is doing so much for herself. You are right that it is time for her to learn to "juggle". My S and I discussed his choices, he filled out his apps and I made travel arrangemnts and the final audition/travel schedule. I must admitt that he is very disorganized and while he did do his apps I had to tell him it was time to do them. He was good about getting his audition material together, I did share tips I had gotten on this website. I did organize his clothes for auditions and I did copy and put his music together for his auditions ( he now does all of this for himself). Of course like so many of these kids he was(is) very busy with school, rehersals and work. I think that the more the student is willing and able to do for themselves, the better.</p>

<p>I believe you are totally on the right track. I think too many parents take too much of the process on, and get too personally involved. (not just MT, but certainly that as well.) I can't telll you how many times I've heard parents say "We got accepted at..." Uh, no, WE didn't get accepted anywhere! And, if the parent saying that was a significant enough part of the process to make that true, it is a shame for the parent and the student.</p>

<p>I know of people who run the whole gamut -- totally hands-off; basic secretarial/travel agent duties; to those who wrote the college essays.</p>

<p>If your d has everything under control, great! If she asks for help that is reasonable, do so -- but if not, let her drive the car on this one!</p>

<p>To me, your level of involvement sounds just right. Your D sounds a lot like mine in juggling school and outside rehearsals and applications. Mine spent most of August last year writing essays and completing what seemed like endless paperwork. I thought of my role as travel agent (and credit card provider for all those application fees) to set up the auditions in a timely manner. </p>

<p>To clarify, she got the audition information and dates, she picked the dates that worked and I made the travel/hotel/air or car plans(and whether hubby or I was going with her). Probably the only exception is NYU where I went online from work with her preferred dates to capture them when they were available. Other than confirming that she got a CONFIRMING email or letter of the audition date, I was done. And I felt like I did a lot without overstepping what she needed to do to get herself applying at all these schools.</p>

<p>You said she had finished 6 - a good number to me on Sept 4. My D did 8 total and I think had completed all but 2 by now (Michigan with the extensive rep list took the longest). </p>

<p>Honestly, I felt like I did more early research (and reading CC) than I did after the application process began. I did a large spreadsheet that I updated a lot before with dates and costs etc. that took a lot of time. </p>

<p>Just my experience...........and by the way, enjoy the time as it will fly by!</p>

<p>MikksMom</p>

<p>Everyone has their own comfort level or approach with this and so I am not saying what others SHOULD do but I can comment on what I've done with my own kids which sounds pretty similar to what you are experiencing (I think). My kids drove their own college selection and application process. They made all the decisions as to where to apply and we did not influence their choices. They also did their own applications and all the other things that needed to be done. They made all of their own contacts with faculty and so forth. </p>

<p>However, I was involved in some capacity. We would meet to discuss each step. We would discuss a timeline of all the things that needed to be done. We would discuss the college list that they came up with. We would discuss a plan of attack for audition dates. We would discuss the topics they were considering for essays. They would share pieces they had done such as their activity resume, theater resume, essays, applications, etc. and I would look it over and give feedback as a reader. Basically, I was a support person or facilitator but they did the work themselves. I was there as a guide and they would run things by me and we'd talk about what they were doing. But the kids certainly did the bulk of the work themselves. I also did some secretarial work such as the travel plans (they made the choices of when/where) and the audition appointments. But I did not do other secretarial work such as I did not write anyone at a school and I also was not the one to gather all their dates and all their essay prompts and all their requirements, etc. They did that gathering. If they needed to be registered for a testing date and they told me of it, I did the secretarial task of registration/paying. They drove that, however, and just asked if I could do the sign up. I did not take over, in other words. I even have a child now who is a senior in college and she is applying to graduate schools. When she was home for only five days recently, we discussed her list of schools (she did all the research and selection) and we discussed a time line of all the things she'd have to do, who she was gonna ask for recs, etc. I am interested in it and we discuss it but she does it all. She is away from home in fact. </p>

<p>Was this process a LOT to fit in with already jam packed schedules of very demanding courses and very full extracurricular endeavors every afternoon, evening and weekend? Definitely. But they managed to fit this in and kept to the plan/pace of their time lines. They are very good at time management and never needed any pushing to do a thing. I did wonder how in the world they would fit all of this into what was already a full schedule without college admissions stuff. I even recall that my BFA kid was in a show that rehearsed 50 miles from home and got us home at 11 PM at night after extracurriculars all afternoon and weekend as well. But she managed to do 8 different applications (no common app ones), multiple essays, and 8 campus auditions. Was it a bit of a nutty time? Yes, indeed, but it was doable. I even wonder how my older D who is applying to graduate schools that are super competitive (like BFAs!) will fit in GRE studying, applications/essays, and creating a portfolio presentation (akin to audition prep), on top of a demanding college, an Honors thesis, a varsity college team, a tour guide, a freshman advisor and so on. But she will figure it out. As you say, these kids have to learn to "juggle" because anyone going onto a BFA program better know that the schedule is extremely FULL morning, noon, night and weekend. My D who is in a BFA program, is often in class or rehearsals all day and all evening and part of the weekend and still has to fit in class prep and homework for nine classes and maintain high grades. If a kid can't time manage prior to a BFA program, they may have a problem. I have run into kids who can't seem to get college application tasks done in any timely way and I do wonder how those particular types of kids will manage in a BFA program and I think some have no idea what they are getting into. A BFA program is not like regular college when it comes to time commitments. So, I agree with all that you wrote. I do think a parent can have a role in the college admissions process as a support person who guides and discusses what needs to be done but doesn't DO it. It sounds to me that your D is motivated, driven, capable, responsible and is good at time management. Don't knock it because it comes across as somene who will be able to manage a BFA program. While HS is no way like college, I always felt that the very full BFA schedule was not going to be THAT new of an experience for my D because she had to juggle an extremely full schedule of commitments prior to college. Some kids thrive on this and also are good at time management which is clearly necessarily in a BFA program. Even in college, I am amazed at all the "extra" things my kids have taken on out of choice, which has required a lot of time management and I honestly do not know how they do it all, LOL, but they do. You are right that once they leave the nest, they have to manage this stuff on their own and so parents should guide their HS seniors now to move in this direction if they are not already used to doing some things on their own (with parental support behind the scenes).</p>

<p>By the way, MTgrlsmom, I think I read months ago that your D was going to attend the NYU/Tisch/CAP21 pre-college program, right? I hope she liked it. There is a good chance she met my daughter because my D was hired to be an accompanist for the Vocal Tech classes for the program. I know she had one of the other CC posters here as a student in the class she accompanied for and got to know her. I don't know who your D is or if my D played for her class. My D enjoyed meeting the HS seniors in the program. I don't know if you attended their final demo day, but my D played for each of the students in her class for that. I don't wish to mention her name here but your D would know whether or not she had my D as my D was the only student who did that job whereas the other accompanists for Tisch are adult/faculty types with degrees. My D would look like one of the pre-college students because she is 18 and so your D would know who I meant. The high school students were aware that my D is a student in CAP21 and so they had a chance to talk to someone in the program which I believe they enjoyed getting to do.</p>

<p>Good luck to your D in her upcoming admissions process.</p>

<p>I don't think there is anything wrong with a parent filling out the repetitive parts of applications. Name, Address,school info, etc. I think this can help alleviate some of the stress students feel at this stage of the game. Then they can concentrate on the personal side of the application. Essays, recommendations, involvement, rep list, etc.</p>

<p>My daughter and I struck a deal that she would do all the work of substance and I would do administative work and tracking. We agrred on this because during her senior year she had the responsibility for 4 AP courses, was in school from 7:15 am to 2:30, had rehearsals for a winter and spring show, was attending 4 dance classes, 2 voice classes and an acting class a week, was doing community service and was working on weekends.</p>

<p>So, she took care of her essays, teacher recommendations, activity lists, searching for audition materials and audition prep and school list. I took care of all clerical work and administrative tracking of timelines, deadlines and whether materials sent to schools were received. Seemed like a fair and balnced allocation under the circumstances.</p>

<p>The application process is a ton of work on top of their already busy schedules with school, work, and extra-curricular activities. And you are just seeing the beginning of it (and dare I say, the easy part). </p>

<p>I found it a lot of work the whole way through - and there was plenty of work for everyone, kid, guidance counselor, and parents. </p>

<p>Following up with stuff is the painful part - it's hard for kids to make those calls from school - and you will have missing transcripts, recommendation letters, test scores, you name it; financial aid forms really fall to the parents (and more follow up); paying and arranging for test scores to be sent (and more follow up); arranging the final, really important campus visits, where you probably want a personalized itinerary; deposits; housing forms; egads, I'm making myself tired!</p>

<p>Anyway, I do not feel the least bit bad about helping my kids with some of this stuff - in sort of a secretary capacity. </p>

<p>Have fun! :)</p>

<p>There is definitely a role that parents can play....as support personnel to discuss all the aspects of the process, but also some secretarial tasks like travel plans, lining up appointments/auditions, test score reports that are not the type of personal contact with a college that the student should make themselves. It is basically a business type task and sometimes that kind of call can't be done during hours that the student is available and also some things involve payments and such. In our family, the dad did all the financial aid forms. Trip planning was in concert with the child, but many arrangements were made by the parent. The parent was involved as a support person for revising the apps or discussing them, but not doing them. A parent surely can be a guide through the process even when the child is doing the tasks. You can set up "meetings" with your child to check in on the tasks of the week, whatever.</p>

<p>Neither one of my parents is involved at all except to make jokes about how I should just go to state school instead, cause it's a lot less hassle. =P I like it that way; it's a lot less pressure than if they were breathing down my back every second. I'll get help once it comes time to book hotels and flights/train tickets and when I have to fill out financial aid stuff, but aside from paying half my application fees and test score fees, my parents are leaving me alone.</p>

<p>I am chiming in for those parents who are carrying a lot of the load in the process. While my S is writing essays, filling out applications, etc., he does not read CC, though I encourage him to do so. His 'where I want to go' list does not include any school that costs less than $45k/year, and he does not understand that its fine to go to a non-ivy BFA program. Like any 17 year old, the propensity is either to over or under bias their assessment of their talent (we, as parents do the same).
Last year a bright kid at my S's HS was getting little help. I told him to give me a call and I told him about CC. Alas, though he had outstanding academic stats, he got rejected by the four shools that he applied to (BU, Rutgers, NYU, NCSA). He did not understand the fundamentals of the game. His HS did not understand the game either. He is now going to a second-tier stste college (BA program is not that great) that he got into in late March after the rejection letters arrived. I told my S just yesterday, had this kid talked to me for just an hour, or had his parents understood how the game worked, he would be in a good acting program.
I am very involved in the 'list making' process, but now it is my S's responsibility to understand how each program differs in reputation, quality (do reputation and quality highly correlate?), campus features, location, size, etc. He needs to take ownership of the decision. CC has been a godsend. It is an incredible resource, and it has the potential to radically alter college practices (I say this as a prof), if there was more overt/organized 'consumer report' type information about, i.e., cutting practices, quality of teaching, etc.). MT CCers are incredible. I wish something could be done to facilitate and motivate more discussion in the drama (under Arts) section. I have done what I can to instigate discussion over there, but with little effect.</p>

<p>Brian, you point out one of the roles I think a parent definitely can play and in fact, was true in our family in a similar way and I believe is likely true of the parents who read CC in general. While my kids definitely picked their own college list and we had no opinions or cared which ones they wanted to apply to and they surely researched each school themselves and wrote up notes on each one and explained why they liked it, etc., a parent who reads books and CC and who becomes knowledgeable about the process can only be a huge resource for their child. They can then share with their child what they have learned about the process, or if they came across a school, anything. My kids never read CC. I bought some books on the subject. They were given college directories. They did the research and went over their lists with us to discuss. But as a parent, by becoming knowledgable about the subject, the schools, the admission process, etc., that becomes a great resource for the son/daughter, and helps in the guiding of them. I have a lot of respect for parents who arm themselves with the knowledge and gather resources in order to advise their child (who then does the actual work of picking schools and applying!). My kids would come home from school and say that so many students didn't have a clue about the college admissions process and they wished their peers had someone like me to explain it all to them. Not all parents get involved. Not all parents read up on this stuff. I think the CC parents (not just on the MT Forum where I realize some ONLY hang out...but CC has a wealth of other forums and also other resources on the site beyond the forums), are an incredible bunch of people who are arming themselves with information (let alone helping others) so that they can help facilitate their child's process when it is a new experience for their child (let alone themselves). My kids truly welcomed any guidance they could get. They also were interested if I said I l learned something on CC that was pertinient, etc. So, I definitely think parents can be a huge resource for their children in the college selection, admissions, and audition process by arming themselves with information that can be shared or enables them to advise their sons/daughters. My personal view is that the parent ideally would be a resource, a guide and a facilitator but that the student does the work (though some secretarial things a parent might do) and the student owns the process and selects their schools and makes decisions about their applications and auditions, etc.</p>

<p>Here's another thought. Maybe our kids know more than we realize. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality and quantity of information my son had on various MT programs across the nation. I guess the two summer programs he attended passed on some valuable info. I just had to sit down with him and see what he knew and what he thought about each program.</p>

<p>llong...my D could have pretty much told you her list in ninth grade too because it was sorta "ready-made" as she knew at least the names of the schools (if not more) where she likely would apply because she had many older friends going to these programs since she had attended a summer theater program for years. But not all kids get that kind of exposure or know others who have gone onto BFA programs (for instance, at our HS, it is VERY rare). So, I can appreciate that some truly have no clue and it is even more important to find a resource like CC. But even though my D had a list of schools in mind for a long time, when it came time to getting ready to apply, she did more in depth research on each school and took notes, contacting those who attend, and eventually visited. But coming up with her college list was nothing like what the process was for my other child who first went through thick college directories, liked 30 schools and then narrowed it down to about ten to visit and so forth. My MT kid had a basic list in mind for a long time but when it came time to apply, she did more research to refine the list or to be certain about applying rather than just heresay, etc. For instance, she eliminated CCM which she had heard of through others but didn't end up meeting her personal criteria once she explored more deeply. My D had to solidify her list in tenth grade when she decided to graduate early and hadn't gotten to visit all the schools as I had planned to do that in her junior year originally and so she ended up applying to college in fall of junior year starting at age 15. Thankfully, she knew a lot about MT schools from older theater pals, and could visit them when we got to campus, etc. But I could have likely told you her list back in ninth grade, even though we never looked into colleges that early, nor discussed them, but she just "knew." I even recall back in 2001, when my D was still 12, and in NYC to attend an audition, we met up with her best theater friend from another state and her mom, and we took a walk in the city and walked by NYU and the girls both said, "one day, we will be roomies here and go to CAP21 (wishfully thinking)." My D now goes to NYU, LOL....and that friend also got into NYU but chose another school, so that little "dream" of rooming together back at age 12 did not quite happen but actually this past summer, they did live together in NYC in an NYU dorm while working in the city. :D. </p>

<p>Anyway, your child, or my daughter's experience is not the case with a lot of kids who haven't had exposure to the BFA programs or don't know anyone who has attended, etc.</p>

<p>soozievt:Good comments. I have a folder for each program. I bought all the college guides (surprisinly accurate at depicting the culture/climate of colleges) and copied opinions from other web sites. I cut-out the comments and put them in the folders, along with features of the BFA program, audition/application deadlines, brochures, audition requirements, travel requirements, etc. My S is reading the folders to inform his decisions RE; the list. The information is organized so as to force him to entertain important issues; great BFA program/Univ. status relatively low; campus is a cruise ship (I confess that we both have a soft spot for beautiful monastic campuses with great fitness facilities)/ BFA program (sorry, but I wish there were more BFA programs on the more beautiful private/public campuses) is not prestegious; high cost/higher probability of having a theater career; and numerous other issues. I also have offered my opinion regarding the probability of acceptance to each program, so that we meet his goals of (1) getting into a BFA program and (2) getting into the best program, given his stats, ECs, talents, the relative to the likely number of applicants (very high, exceptionally high, absurdly high), and the likely randomness/noise endemic to the selection/retention process. I have also explored the percentage of males currently in the program, which may have a minor impact on the probabilty of my S's acceptance.
I have done quite a bit. I do not think that there is anything wrong with deferring such anal behavior to a parent. I would worry if my S was demontrating such compulsive behavior. He has plenty of time to pick up organizational/bureaucratic skills. I am an Organizational Psychologist and teach an entry-level course that covers the implications of ours being an 'organizational society'. I have raised my S to understand but approach this condition suspiciously, and to, more importantly, have the courage to challenge it; conversely, I have raised him to be a bold leader and to not fear organizations and organizers. He is an entrepreneurial, imaginative and bold kid, thank God,, but I do not want him to rebel at this critical moment. I therefore have supervised and administered the 'bureaucracy'. The university/college has become a principal nexus/means of organizing (status,class, economic capital, social capital) - look at what it has done to many of us; is it healthy? I read many threads on CC that suggest that our obsession with rankings, prestige, etc. is, as Michael Moore might call it, 'sicko'. My son sees the sickness, but this is not the time for 'acting out'. So I encourage him to just study for this lame selection technology called the SAT, to say thank you sir, and to try to figure out which college is the best fit for this kid that I am proud of for becoming what he is.</p>

<p>I know living on the West Coast, and never having attended an intense summer program my D did not have access to the info she needed. The school college counselor was clueless, as was the professional college counselor we paid. The best thing we got from the professional college counselor was an insistance upon deadlines, so his wife could read and make editing suggestions to essays.
We had never heard of most of the schools my D applied to/ auditioned for. If not for CC she would not be where she is.
As for the organziational elements of the applicaion/ audition process; my D did not have the time or frankly the skills to manage all that when she was 17. She is a great kid, but is not that organized. She is working on it. I kept a flow chart, she did the work, and I nagged and nagged again and again.</p>

<p>Brian, you sound like a very dedicated parent who is really guiding your son through this important stage of his life. I am sure he appreciates your advisement and help. I recall a thank you letter my older child wrote about my helping her through the process and thanking me saying she could not have done it without me. I think all of our kids really do appreciate the support that I see CC parents giving their kids (that's why they are here!).</p>

<p>I am pretty involved with my kids too. The one thing I did differently than you but it isn't more "right" but has to do with each person approaching this differently, is that my kids researched some of the things you are mentioning such as points about each college, how it met their criteria, the curriculum, the application deadlines, the audition requirements, the essay prompts, and so forth. We discussed doing it but they did it and then shared the gathered information with me and we discussed how they would approach it or whatever. Even with my clients, I have them gather up a lot of information on the college, and make spreadsheets on each college and include their pros/cons. They also gather their deadlines, requirements, essay prompts, etc. and then I help them plan and organize a plan of attack and discuss all of it. But they do a lot of that work themselves. I can tell them about a college but I want them to really explore some on their own and discover how it meets or doesn't meet their criteria, formulate opinions and questions, compare/contrast and then I look it over and we discuss it. They gather the essay prompts but we discuss which topics they are considering and which prompts they will use it for and so forth. </p>

<p>By the way, my kids, nor myself, have ever been interested in rankings. My kids have never seen USNews and World Report, nor could tell you where their schools are ranked. They picked colleges solely by fit with their personal criteria. One of my kids preferred two schools on her list over an Ivy League school she got into (this would be way out to some kids on some of the other CC forums!) and my BFA kid chose not to apply to one of the top programs in her field as it was not a fit for what she wanted no matter how well regarded the program is. I am a firm believer in picking the school that is the best match for what you want. My kids did that and I can't begin to tell you how happy they are with their choices now that they are juniors/seniors in their respective colleges. Neither is obsessed with rankings or prestige. They were lucky to get into their first choice schools but these were schools that were excellent matches for them and has definitely turned out to be perfect fits. That is what I hope for any student, and not to get into a certain "name" of a school. Finding the right match is going to be what matters once you get there. I think a student needs to own the process. I read of some students (not necessarily on the MT Forum though but more on other CC forums) where the parents want their student to go to a certain school. That never came up in our family. We never told our kids where to apply and to be perfectly honest, didn't care where they went as long as they had good reasons for picking their schools and wanted to attend. It was entirely their choice and it was a pleasure watching to see what they would decide. I have a kid applying now to professional graduate schools and here we go again, but again, she has created her own list and I have no preference as to where she ends up. </p>

<p>What I hope for every parent here, no matter the school their child ends up at, is to get a call like I got at dinner time yesterday on my MT D's first day of classes in junior year (and this was her academic day, not even her studio day) that went something like this:
"Mom, I just had to call you to tell you I absolutely LOOOOVE my school and I had the greatest first day and it is all so amazing, everything I did (which that day was two academic classes plus a third one she has chosen to audit and take for no credit as she really wants to do it and it is over the credit limit and also had a session with the composer she is musically directing her professional show for in NYC), and I want to thank you so much for paying for me to go here!"
What more could you want as a parent for your kid to be happy at college, to be learning a lot, and having great experiences and some exciting opportunities? This is what I wish happens this time next fall for all of you parents who have HS seniors, no matter WHERE your child matriculates. This is really what it is all about.</p>

<p>How timely this discussion is! My s and I were just talking about this very issue this morning.</p>

<p>A few weeks ago, I provided him with a list of what we would and would not do for the college process, and what he was expected to do. If the list was followed, it would provide a fairly good roadmap of the process...fill out applications, fill out scholarship applications, get audition materials together, etc. I also purchased a new planner for him for this process. The most important item on his list of things to do was to get the deadlines organized and in the planner. I had really hoped the list would help reduce some of the tension in the house.</p>

<p>I am not sure if he is in denial about growing up, or if he truly does not know what to do next. As many parents of teens probably know, I walk a fine line between reminding and nagging. I keep trying to stick to the list (which is posted on the fridge for all to see), but it is difficult.</p>

<p>I know when I went to college that I did all of this without any input from my parents (and there was no help from a guidance counselor at my small high school)...if I did not know something, I knew to ask. I keep wondering if I have gone wrong somewhere in my parenting!</p>

<p>Justamom</p>

<p>My d and I had some of the same issues last year. I love lists and planners, and I LOVE to get things done well before they are due. She does her best work under the pressure of waiting until the last minute. Some how everything got done and turned in before deadlines. It really turned out to be a positive experience, she learned to appreciate my way of doing things and I developed a huge admiration for her ability to work under stress. I remember feeling much the way you are right now! Hang in there!</p>

<p>Parents, please do not feel that you need to apologize. Students, please don't or feel ashamed if you need your parents help! Applying/auditioning for a BFA MT program is NOTHING like the process that kids go through if they are applying for a regular BA or BS programs. The average senior applying to BFA MT programs IS juggling a huge load at school, taking outside lessons in voice, acting and dance and is participating multiple shows throughout the year. They must choose & exaustively rehearse their audition material, compile repertoires, artistic resumes and travel to their auditions. This is not true of BA or BS students and most BA,BS students apply to an average of 4-6 schools. Don't compare notes with the parents of an "undecided" student applying to three state schools. They should not need help, but MOST MT students NEED HELP, some more than others. Should parents be writing essays? HECK NO! But they should not feel bad about acting as the secretary/travel agent. If your child is organizationally challenged as many "artsy" types are, NOW IS NOT THE TIME test their maturity. There are many other ways to challenge and encourage your child's maturity/level of accountablity. Try asking for more help with the household chores! This could be one of the most life changing events of your child's life. Now is not the time to say "sink or swim" unless of course you really don't WANT them to get into a BFA MT program and I can understant that too!</p>