<p>Dropped? I asked how a parent would feel if their son or daughter’s fees suddenly tripled, not how they’d feel if they were to move in-line with what British fees are.</p>
<p>I am not arguing for the return of free tuition, but I don’t accept that just because the US is more expensive that we in the UK should be somehow grateful for paying less, as you appear to suggest we should. I could perhaps stomach this fee hike if it was going to improve facilities or create scholarships for poorer students, but it won’t; all it will do is maintain universities current level of funding by filling the void left my government cuts.</p>
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<p>I fail to see how $30,000 per annum is “incredibly low”, even by American standards.</p>
<p>I just think it’s funny that we are so quick to be respectful of the differences between UK and US culture if the argument is about drinking before age 21, but if it’s anything less convenient for the US then suddenly the UK is crazy. I don’t think it’s okay to triple college education costs all at once like that, especially when it was promised that it wouldn’t happen, and regardless of if it’s a lot of money compared to the US it is sure a lot of money compared to what families were budgeting for which is all that’s really important. If my tuition went from 12k to 36k tomorrow I wouldn’t be happy regardless of if its cheap compared to other schools in the nation.</p>
Dude. Please. I’m off that topic. For you it’s an increase, for me it’s an eye-popping revelation that such an incredible deal exists.</p>
<p>OK, to answer your question: Yes, I’d be upset if they started charging me for the air that I breathe over here, because right now that’s free. So OK, I can sympathize. OK, OK, sympathise. I’ll sympathise with you when they start charging for my air.
I’m sorry about your loss chap, really I am. It would be like air for pay, wouldn’t like that at all. But really, I’m off that topic now. And your free dinner is at risk if you don’t give it a rest.</p>
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<p>Dude, I just learned that a few of the ***best freaking universities in the whole freaking world ***are cheaper than my flagship state school, which is my cheapest workable option right now by far. So pardon me while I celebrate, and I want to hug you in a manly sort of way.</p>
<p>I don’t know about you, but back when I started saving and planning a family, I sure wasn’t imagining a budget of $250,000 for 4 years; I thought $100k would have been more than sufficient for any nightmare scenario. Who could have possibly dreamed that college prices would rise 10X during a period when the cost of money only rose 4X?</p>
<p>Wow, I thought this thread would sink without a trace. I originally posted The Times snippet because I was amused at the Minister saying people might pay £9,000 for Oxbridge/Imperial but not for other unis an echo of that ongoing CC debate on the merits of top unis vs others. A couple of points though on the discussion thats ensued. MisterK, unless you have an EU student, youll be paying international student fees which for 2011-2012 range from roughly £12,000 to £18,000 at Cambridge (different fee structures for different subjects, with the highest set at £28,600 for medicine). And thats just tuition, you need to factor in College and living expenses (and travel). A few years back a CC poster was trying to decide between Oxford and Harvard for her son. Hed gotten a paltry amount of aid from the latter and in the end they decided that even with the travel. Oxford came in cheaper because its a three year course (most subjects) compared to 4 years undergrad in the US. (I met him some years later and it was clear he’d made the right decision - a happy ending story!) .</p>
<p>Dionysus is absolutely correct that its the overnight tripling of fees that is the shocker. University education was free until 1998 when fees of £1,000 were introduced. This rose to around £1,500 and then doubled to £3,000 in 2006 (when my D started at Oxford). So fees have gone from zero to £9,000 in 14 years. Oh and I put free in quotes because given the taxes here (we pay 50% income tax), we ARE paying for education. And even the increased tuition fees still dont represent the true cost of the education which as I remember was pegged at about £18,000 in Ds time she paid £3,000, then filled out the paperwork for her Local Education Authority to pay the rest. Thats why tuition fees are actually top up fees. </p>
<p>SoccerGirlNYC refers to lack of financial aid here but this is ignoring completely the whole system of student loans in place to support young people who are largely expected to fund their own university education without parental support. That makes irrelevant the point about not allowing enough time for families to save up . Among Ds circle ( mostly very comfortably off middle-class families, some out and out rich folks and some whod gone to private secondary school on bursaries, ie means based scholarships ) we were the only ones p aying up front - nobody else paid tuition. The other parents expected their students to apply student loans which are payable back to the Government once one is earning a certain level. The Coalition Govt is justifying the tuition hike by saying theyve raised this threshold from the current £15,000 to £21,000 . In my Ds three years at Oxford, I never once saw a tuition bill all bills went directly to her and she handled them. </p>
<p>Finally, my heart is with the student protestors here (as long as they aren’t throwing fire hydrants at the police). And Nick Clegg who campaigned on the platform of No Increase in Tuition Fees has lost all my respect.</p>
<p>I can’t believe this. Checking out Oxford, this is a 3-year degree. So $90,000, 3/4 of my state school, about $150,000 less than the privates I’m looking at. If my son could get into Oxford, or Cambridge, or Andrews, the entire family could afford to take a long, relaxing European vacation every single summer, and then have enough left over to pay for Oxford again for my daughter, and all before we even get into the costs for the second kid. Basically two complete educations and vacations of a lifetime every summer, all for the cost of one kid’s education over here!</p>
<p>THIS IS INCREDIBLE!!!</p>
<p>There must be a catch, but looking at the website, I don’t see them raising up the tuition for US folks.</p>
<p>The point about families being able to save up was about preventing or reducing the amount of debt a student will take on. Yes, you don’t have to re-pay until you earn a certain amount but certainly the levels of debt are making people re-think university education, especially given the current levels of unemployment. Paying off loans is hard - I know, I have a well paid job and I am still paying large chunks of my paycheck each month (and yes, being in the US, my parents had set aside some money, but then then I have 3 siblings)</p>
<p>Also, a lot of this has to do with the rising numbers of university students over the past 20 years. I think it was the Labour government who wanted to get 50% students going to unversity so they changed many polytechnics (vocational and job-focussed colleges) into universities. Some of these have done well (Bournemouth, Oxford Brookes) but in the main they are seen as not as good as the traditional universities. </p>
<p>British universities were designed for the top 5-10% of the graduating high school class, who would go on to serve society as lawyers, doctors, civil servants, teachers, furthering science and research in academia and other professions. In this model, having it for free kinda made sense (and it was made free to stop it being the preserve of the rich as it was pre war). Now, everyone is expected to have a degree and it is a personal choice about whether you want to make the investment: event management degree from Salford at £21k ??? (starting salary for event manager: £14k per year) doesn’t make sense really. </p>
<p>The question on CC all the time is ‘what is the role of a university education?’: to prepare one for a career/job or to broaden your experience and education, improve critical thinking skills etc… this will become the question in the mind of British parents as we go on</p>
<p>Ah samuck, we cross-posted. So there is a concept of international fees, but based on what you’re saying, it looks like they still come out to be far cheaper. Need more investigation. Frankly, the biggest worry might be whether we all think my son could be ready for something like this. Now I’m wondering what the deal with McGill is in Canada - after a quick look, it’s very promising! Clearly I’ve got some research to do, but what a great idea.</p>
<p>Regarding the 50% income tax - you’d be surprised to find that many of us pay half our income over here as well. We just break it up into a whole bunch of little taxes - 3 different major federal taxes (the wage tax tops out at 35%, but only half of us are required to pay any wage tax at all), state tax, county tax, local tax, property taxes, and there are more depending on where you live. Some can and do get to 50%. The difference is that we don’t get much for our money. Our government is incredibly wasteful; we pay for our own health care and education, etc.</p>
<p>Pretty insane that we fought a war over taxation without representation! Could we come back now please, we’ve learned our lesson?</p>
<p>MisterK, there are many threads here on CC re differences between US & UK uni systems. But if your student has a passion for a single subject and finds the right course , the UK can definitely be a more attractive option than the US. It worked out wonderfully for my D. But her brother will need a US style liberal arts curriculum as he hasnt yet found his subject. PM me if have specific questions but there is a load of info available both here and elsewhere online. Oh, and the increased tuition fees wont affect international student fees because internationals are already paying full fee as opposed to top ups.</p>
<p>MisterK, Tuition and fees for oversea students at Oxford are currently set at around £20,000 a year ($32,000). That’s higher than out-of-state tuition rates at most public universities in the US and not much cheaper than private college tuition.</p>
<p>If you are looking for a real bargain, I suggest you send your son to Germany. He can study at the most prestigious universities for only €500 per semester!</p>
<p>If after tripling the tuition was still only £9,000 for Oxbridge or LSE I’d be jumping for joy at the fanatastic bargain I was getting. Imagine, going to one of the top universitites in the world for less than half the price I currently pay for my daughter to attend her selective US school. British college students are incredibly fortunate.</p>
<p>You pay for your daughter? Tell me, if she had to pay for herself and take out $80k in loans would you still be jumping for joy? From where I’m sat its American students who’re the fortunate ones, imagine parents paying for you!</p>
<p>A question: why don’t English parents value education for their children more, Dionysus58? Is it a cultural socio-economic thing–obviously the upper class kids aren’t paying for their schooling through loans.</p>
<p>When I first came to the US, I was very impressed by the open-mindedness of the population. Discussions like these remind me that this open-mindedness is confined to a few small areas, mostly related to topics of identity. I am disappointed that so many posters here seem unable to think outside of their own little bubble.</p>
<p>Tuition in Britain is about to become higher than tuition anywhere else in Europe. For British students that’s a huge deal. On the flip side, tuition in the US is higher than tuition almost anywhere else in the world. It’s American students who are getting the raw end of the deal, not British students being surprisingly well off. </p>
<p>I don’t go around denying Americans the right to complain about high gas prices, only because gas costs three times as much in Germany as it does in the US. The point is that gas prices in the US are higher than what people are used to and that’s a hardship for families and the economy - regardless of what people in other countries are paying for their gas.</p>
Wow. Why doesn’t the American public value the education of their people enough to invest more into their public university systems? Or why are American adult college students not mature enough to bear the financial responsibilities of their educational decisions themselves, instead of relying on mommy and daddy up through their mid-20s? </p>
<p>But to answer your question, ellemenope, I suspect that it’s mostly a result of historical circumstances. Up until a decade ago higher education in Britain was free and middle-class students were expected to work their way through college. When tuition fees were finally introduced, they came with the option to postpone all payments until after graduation. College financing in Britain has always been primarily the student’s responsibility, not the parents’.</p>
<p>b@arum brings up a good point: MisterK if gas prices suddenly tripled would you be jumping for joy that they’re still less than in Europe? </p>
<p>This is a silly discussion. The cost of education in America, relative to middle class earnings, is ridiculous. The fact that the UK is beginning to follow suit is no reason for glee. And BTW MisterK, it’s not that easy for an American to get into Oxbridge - the student who can is likely to also get a nice merit package at a name US college/university that’s similar to/less than going to Cambridge or Oxford.</p>
<p>elemenope, you say "obviously the upper class kids aren’t paying for their schooling through loans. " But they are - through the student grant system - see my post #25. All D’s friends (from all backgrounds) paid for their own education - through student loans. UK students are much more independent than their counterparts in the US. I’m not saying that’s better - it’s a different mindset.</p>