<p>wellesley/wesleyan always confuzzles me.</p>
<p>dfx: Wellesley is all-girls in MA, Wesleyan is coed in CT</p>
<p>rlt: I wasn't talking to the Wellesley prof at some sort of official prospie thing or something. I just asked her about how she'd compare Wellesley and Smith. She said she liked Smith, mostly because the Northampton community is less materialistic than the Wellesley community, but she had "to admit things are a little stepped-up at Wellesley." Because she also said something she preferred about Smith, I didn't get the sense she was being political. Also, more Wellesley students get in at top law and grad schools, and I'd hate to think those top postgraduate schools don't know what they're doing.</p>
<p>None of that means that if a girl chose Wellesley over Smith she would necessarily get a better education at Wellesley. It all depends on the individual. </p>
<p>I would not have brought up Wellesley vs. Smith on the Smith forum at all, except that I was asking about student-caliber on the Wellesley forum and you (rlt) went over there and started arguing w/ me. I also know a girl who transferred from Smith to Wesleyan who feels students are higher-caliber at Wesleyan (though so far, she says teachers in her major were better at Smith). I'd be happy to stop debating this if you would stop trying to argue that the average Smith student could perform as well academically as the average student from more-selective schools where the SAT is 100+ pts higher and the students had higher class-ranks at their hs. It still doesn't mean that top Smith students can't receive an excellent education at Smith.</p>
<p>I thought I should add that I think it is not strictly natural smarts OR strictly how hard a student works that determines academic caliber. I think it is a combination of the two.</p>
<p>"That was an aberration and is for the class of 08. The admission rate last year (class of 09) was 47% --
CollegeBoard and USNews are a year behind in the stats. "</p>
<p>According to my trusted dictionary, an aberration is a deviation from the proper or expected course. So, based on the recent years, the aberration is the admission rate of 2009. Here are the numbers of the prior six years. </p>
<p>2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003<br>
2993 3304 3047 2869 3017 2998 Applications
1694 1705 1616 1559 1607 1681 Admitted
57% 52% 53% 54% 53% 56% Admission Rate</p>
<p>"Lest anyone believe Smith is easy to be admitted to, think again." </p>
<p>Unless you check the numbers for ED admissions!</p>
<p>2008 2007 2006 2005 2004<br>
192 211 224 230 190 ED Applications
156 152 156 153 134 ED Admitted
81% 72% 70% 67% 71% ED Admission Rate</p>
<p>Thanks Xiggi...you are absolutely correct about the admission rates. Anytime a single sex school is compared to a coed school in admissions is like comparing apples to oranges. Half the population has been removed...yet, amazingly, not all students get in. I wonder why? Would it be because Smith has high admission standards and academic rigor that not many women can endure, or for that fact wish to endure?</p>
<p>Not everyone gets into Smith for the same reason not everyone gets into any school... because more people wish to go than can fit into the school <em>lol</em>. Yes, more people (even more girls) want to go to coed schools -does that make the average co-eder less academically serious? I dunno... I know more than a few girls who chose Smith in hopes of finding a girlfriend, so I tend to think those hormonal tendencies even out. I think regardless of who applies to a selective school, the best students out of the app pool tend to be the ones admitted... So VERY selective schools tend to have better students. Even if Smith's population generally has different SATs and IQs than Amherst's or Reed's, who cares? Smith's population deserves to be educated as much as those other populations do. I think what the average Smithie might lack in intenseness on academics as opposed to the average Reedie, she gains in what my father would call EQ (emotional quotient = personality). No-one can have everything.</p>
<p>{I started out a poor student, and resented people who acted as though I was dumber than them.}</p>
<p>Many of the women at Smith must resent you now.</p>
<p>{Even if Smith's population generally has different SATs and IQs than Amherst's or Reed's, who cares? Smith's population deserves to be educated as much as those other populations do.}</p>
<p>How condescending! Boy, it's easy for anyone to see that you attended a high-filootin' high school, with students spending their parent's money. Aren't you special?</p>
<p>"Half the population has been removed...yet, amazingly, not all students get in. I wonder why? Would it be because Smith has high admission standards and academic rigor that not many women can endure, or for that fact wish to endure?"</p>
<p>BJM8, please note that your sarcasm is wasted on me, as well as the feeble and incorrect argument that a smaller pool of applicants changes the selectivity percentage. Statistics can lead to incorrect interpretations, and I can see why you may want to cling to erroneous conclusions.</p>
<p>Xiggi...my sarcasm was not intended for you. I agreed with your statement. :)</p>
<p>Unless you check the numbers for ED admissions!</p>
<p>2008 2007 2006 2005 2004
192 211 224 230 190 ED Applications
156 152 156 153 134 ED Admitted
81% 72% 70% 67% 71% ED Admission Rate}}}</p>
<p>That's ED1 and ED 2 correct? I dont have the info handy as you do. Obviously I shouldnt be quoting from memory</p>
<p>{{Boy, it's easy for anyone to see that you attended a high-filootin' high school, with students spending their parent's money. Aren't you special?}}</p>
<p>I believe ecape went to a public charter school. She didn't attend a prestigious prep. Some of the charters are superb however.--Stuyvesant in NYC or one.</p>
<p>"That's ED1 and ED 2 correct? I dont have the info handy as you do. Obviously I shouldnt be quoting from memory"</p>
<p>I "think" it is. You may want to check this link at Smith: <a href="http://www.smith.edu/ir/cds.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.smith.edu/ir/cds.php</a> . The early decision information is on page 11. Label c21. </p>
<p>The school does a remarkable job of providing all the data related to admissions. Actually, you should have access to additional data -available on the same page, but restricted to insiders. :)</p>
<p>BJM: Seriously. Whatever. I DO NOT DOUBT that had I graduated hs from the impoverished local school-system I attended through middle school and then gone to Smith, I would have found Smith quite challenging. I regret that the internet does not allow for tone-of-voice or expressions, and therefore allows so many different and potentially malicious interpretations of a written sentence. I am tempted to think if I met your daughter at Smith, chances are we would get along just fine, and a conversation like we've been attempting would make a lot more sense. </p>
<p>In truth, being the liberal I am, I am the first to say our culture puts WAY too much emphasis on book-smartness. I feel this way to what some may call a radical degree. In middle school I used to argue w/ my mom that construction-workers' salaries shouldn't be so different from businessmen's or scientist's, because construction-work is so hard. I would gladly trade a couple dozen pts off my IQ (whatever that may be -I dunno) to be unusually talented in music or acting. It's just that I think of academics as my thing, so I AM a bit obsessive about them.</p>
<p>But fine. Whatever. Think whatever you want about me and my intentions or my ego. All you have to do is ask me not to risk any more posts on the Smith forum, and I'll oblige.</p>
<p>what is your iq then?</p>
<p>I said I don't know :P I'm not from the sort of family that would ever get their kids tested for something like that, send them to expensive private schools, summer schools, or spend money on SAT prep. Just not our thing.</p>
<p>oh sorry i didn't read that part.</p>
<p>{{"think" it is. You may want to check this link at}}</p>
<p>I have that link. My admission percentage declaration was off because of laziness, not doing the math and being senile No excuse! I should have checked my facts.</p>
<p>If the ED numbers are for both ED1&2,( it doesnt say that I can find) they arent much different than Bowdoin that accepted 33% ED1 last year. Smith does two EDs, hence a larger ED % I know where youre going so no need. Im well aware of your feelings regarding the rankings as they pertain to the womens colleges. Thats not a argumentative statement. In reality, I have given one of your very good posts on the subject a great deal of thought. I knew the seven sisters of old before the Ivies, etc. went coed. Its not the old days anymore.</p>
<p>rlt: what does your last sentence mean?</p>
<p>{{My parents are both lawyers, }}
That certainly goes a long way explaining a few things. ACLU? -lol</p>
<p>Ecape, Ill answer your very polite PM you sent me on the board because you have brought up some valid points and my answer might give everyone some thoughts to consider, particularly new prospects.
I hope you dont mind but since there was nothing personal in your note to me, Im assuming a public response isnt an issue.
Bowdon realized years ago there was no correlation how students performed after their first year and SAT scores. They were a leader making the SAT test optional. I dont believe anyone would argue Bowdoin is an incredible college even though their SAT averages are bogus and closer to Smiths than you want to admit.
Smith doesnt have as many wealthy applicants as Bowdin, Midd etc and consequently very few are able to afford the SAT prep test at 1k per session. Its a fairly recognized fact the prep test can add 100 points to the scores. Again, all SATs scores are not created equal.
Smith also a larger % of international students with SAT scores lower on the verbal section, again bringing down the overall score averages. BU plays an even more devious game. They dont include international students SATs so they can artificially keep their SAT stats higher than they should be. The also will exclude the college of general studies because those students score lower on the SAT on average.
Playing with number for the rankings is an amazing slight of hand to witness at some colleges
You mentioned the difference between students in the top 10% of their class at UChicago and Smith is 15% So what? You have no idea if the high schools cross apply. Most dont or the curriculum many of the students took could be vastly different. UChicago doesnt draw from the eastern preps or great high schools in NJ and Long Island, et al areas to the degree Smith does.
The differences between Smith and most LACs/UChicago, etc are the greater number of minority and poor students which equates to a lack of educational opportunities. Tutoring, SAT prep test etc. Of course the number of students in the top 10% many vary or fall below other colleges
Or as in your case, Smith admitted a bright student but because of the intense competition wasnt in the top 10 % of thier graduating class. (Am I correct? If not. sorry) Wouldnt you agree youre more prepared than most students (top 10% or not) because of the exceptional charter school you attended regardless of the fact you could have been in the top 10, 20 or 30 %
of you class? The bottom 50% of students at Chaote,St Pauls, et al are often far more prepared for college than the top 10% of students at ¾ of our countries high schools.
Who would you rather admit or attend class with?</p>
<p>If Midd accepted a student with few APs from a horrible high school in a rural area --they do, I helped one-but Smith accepted an Andover grad that was only in the top 20% of their class, who would be better prepared? Unfortunately Midd scores one top 10 % admit, Smith looses one. Our high school doesnt weigh grades. Many of the16 IB diploma candidates werent in the top 10% of their class because the remainder of the school took easy courses to protect their gpa to be admitted to state schools Out of our 4 Vals, one took zip difficult classes, 2 took 2 IB science classes, and one took one IB French class. In order to protect their gpa and val status, NONE of the students took the most rigorous courses available, or even close, including the difficult History/English and TOK 2 yrear IB program The counselor could only state my daughter and 15 others took the most rigorous class available on the college applications, but one Val was admitted to Columbia ( no one has figured out how except for the Val stat) another CalTech ( he deserved to be so). SATs were all very similar among the IB students except the CalTech admit who aced the math portion. </p>
<p>The wall street Journal or the USA Today, cant remember which, wrote a story on the Val fever sweeping the high schools. One school had <em>40</em> vals Even admission officers are stating to admit the class ranks are starting to become more meaningless than in past years. However, for the sake of reporting the stats to US News all colleges attempt to admit as many high ranking students as possible regardless if the ranking has a great deal of validity. At Andover, Choate, et al preps this isnt an issue. But most students applying to college are from public high schools and many admission officers arent familiar with their rigor, or lack of. Not to be redundant, class rank can be meaningless in many instances.</p>
<p>Fwiw-My daughter took all honors and achieved the IB diploma, as I have said, but wasnt in the top 10 % of her class, so she isnt included in the Smith stats as being so. But I can guarantee you she is more prepared and brighter than 90 of those who are in the top percentiles from most other schools. High school rankings mean nothing in many instances.
Here is an interesting note. I talked to the admission officer at Wesleyan and told him the GC was going to write a note to the effect had grades been weighed my daughter would easily be in top 5% of her class. His answer was, it doesnt matter, we cant report that for the rankings. Doesnt that speak volumes regarding colleges attitudes toward students in the top 10% of their class regardless of the quality of their education simply to boost their ranking?
Im not accusing Wesleyan or any other college of consciously doing so, but if it came down to deciding between a student in the top 10% of their class with a few APs because that was all that was offered at their high school and one that wasnt in the top 10% even though they had an IB diploma, a 3.7 but wasnt in the top 10 %, they might accept the former for the 10% stat reporting ability.
Wellesley plainly states on their website they dont expect their applicants to take every advanced class simply because theyre offered. I would hazard a guess more students applying to Wellesley are in the top 10% of their class than would otherwise be the fact had all the students taken * the most rigorous curses offered* as is suggested to most students wanting to apply to the top colleges.
Smith will admit numerous students from inter-city charter schools; while many of the other LACs admit no more than a token few. Hamilton, Barnard, et al colleges to their credit have a special program to admit underprivileged students who dont qualify for admission under normal circumstances. They attend a special summer session to get <em>up to speed</em> and go on to wonderful careers. Smith does, more or less, the same thing but without the help of the gov. They use their own endowment funds. Youre a liberal, I should think you would be proud to attend a college where students who arent in the top 10% but have exceptional potential are accepted and nurtured to become as successful as any alum from the top LACs or IVYs should they desire to work hard to do so.
Midd admits 68% of its Black applicants but very few attend. And when they do, it isnt unusual to have racist issues such as the one at Midd and Bowdoin last year. Im not degrading either college, only repeating what was in the college newspapers </p>
<p>Ecape, transferring to pursue a major youre truly dedicated to is legitimate and an admirable ambition. But I believe youll find more blemishes at your other colleges --or any college-- than you can imagine.
Youre a big liberal. Spend an entire weekend at Midd and <em>really</em> listen to the conversations during which even those who claim to be liberal are comparing country clubs and which tropical Is.is better or where the best shopping is in Paris. I know but I aint tellin
Since you have time on your hands because your courses are easy, I have an admirable cause for you to get involved with-- especially considering your spendthrift, ecological tendencies.
Smith spends more on lawn care than some small LACs spend on food. Im a lawn whore being totally obsessed with having a great looking lawn.----.Gawdd, maybe TD is right; I am a republican with a small r metro man in disguise. I take a hair dryer camping also. Thats IF you can get me to camp anymore.</p>
<p>Anyway, back to my point, I know Smith could spend a great deal less and still have their famous, beautiful Chapin lawn, etc. Why not talk to the administration and see if their lawn care company isnt over-billing and doing unnecessary maintenance? They are!!!
The money you save the college could be used to recruit students in the top 10% of the eastern high schools or across the country for that matter. Why not be an ambassador and try to recruit the best and brightest to Smith?
Have you looked at Yale? I have a relative who is a professor and onother prof who may become one soon. -lol The rep of the students being extremely competitive is unfounded. Unlike Cornell where students will check out books in the library so their fellow students dont have access to them, No joke. It was done to my brother-in law on numerous occasions in the EE College The campus is gorgeous and the housing system is somewhat similar to Smiths. It a larger college than you wanted but it feels small.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/evst/%5B/url%5D">http://www.yale.edu/evst/</a></p>