SOMETHING I DON"T UNDERSTAND with sat vs. grades

Applying to College
1

<p>I noticed that a lot of students on this board are applying to schools like UPENN, Dartmouth, and other Ivy's with high gpa's and low sat scores! Im sorry but HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? Do college admissions see this as a student who was never challenged and can't handle the work? Would colleges rather see a 3.6 and a 2250, than a 4.0 with a 2100. Some schools are extremely difficult (i.e. great private schools) and students work hard for mediocre grades while tons of kids at public school take honors classes that aren't even considered standard level at most private schools (by private i don't mean parochial school). So, I need your help to understand how colleges look at the example of students posted at the beginning of this post. </p>

<p>Thanks Guys!</p>

2

<p>Top colleges know about the schools and how challenging they are, and they take that into account. I think you are probably right in thinking that there are students who apply to unrealistically competitive schools based on high GPA, but who don't have the SATs they'd need to get in. On the other hand, the top schools look at factors other than grades and scores, so some of those students do get in. Also, some people just don't do all that well on standardized tests, but perform very well in academic settings. Perhaps some of the schools take that into account as well.
Also, I'd just note that your post is the mirror image of posts complaining about supposedly "lazy" applicants with high SATs but lower GPAs. Some of those applicants get in, too.</p>

3

<p>Most highly competitive colleges would love to get a lot of students who offer a both-and play of high grades AND high test scores, but there are only so many of those students to go around, so some colleges end up admitting quite a few students whose scores (or grades) aren't quite at peak level. The smart thing for the high school student to do is to seek challenge and keep developing ability throughout high school, and then to apply widely during the application season and see what happens. The thing colleges have to do is learn which high school courses are really challenging and which are mostly wimpy among courses offered by tens of thousands of high schools in countries all over the world.</p>

4

<p>Back in the last century, I did alum admissions work for my undergraduate college - highly selective, highly academic, small private. We were told that the most important factors for admission were the GPA and the course selection. After that, the essays, the interview, and SAT scores. This has not changed.</p>

<p>Despite what the college board would like everyone to believe, the best predictor of success in college is the high school GPA. The SAT predicts almost nothing. Many decent colleges and universities have stopped looking at SAT and ACT scores altogether, and others only use them in certain situations. For a current list of SAT optional institutions visit:</p>

<p>The</a> National Center for Fair & Open Testing | FairTest</p>

5

<p>Of course HS GPA is the best predictor of college GPA. But is that the best way to measure success?</p>

<p>And it has changed. It is the rare, rare college where the interview matters as much as the essays or the SAT scores, and at most the SAT still matters more than the essays.</p>

<p>Which is a good thing, since admissions shouldn't hinge on whether some admissions officer likes you or your essays. And GPA should be looked at in perspective-- something the SAT offers, as the only standardized measure of ability for all students. It is not perfect, but the GPA is far less perfect.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
Would colleges rather see a 3.6 and a 2250, than a 4.0 with a 2100.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I believe they go by GPA not SAT. High GPA/high SAT(2400/4.0) students have a good shot of at least one or two of the Ivies.</p>

7

<p>I would like to point out that a 2100 is not a poor test score, especially if you consider that someone could have a M +CR of 1400+ and still get a 2100. The writing section very rarely matters anyway and even if you "only" recieved a 1400 it is still possible to get into top schools like UMich, Cornell, etc.</p>

<p>Also, take into consideration that your GPA = performance over a long period of time whereas SAT = performance over five hours in a classroom.</p>

8

<p>"Would colleges rather see a 3.6 and a 2250, than a 4.0 with a 2100."</p>

<p>I think the answer to this question is VERY complicated. First, you can't generalize about all colleges. It appears, when you look at scattergrams, that some colleges focus more on GPA, but others focus more on scores, and others, more of a mix. Some focus more on extracurriculars than others. Also, not all 3.6 GPAs are created equal. A 3.6 that included a couple of Cs in math might look very different from one with a bunch of Bs in PE, band, and art. A 4.0 might not be all that impressive if the student didn't take the most challenging courses in the high school. The bottom line (broken record time) is that each student needs to make a realistic list of reaches, matches, and safeties.</p>

9

<p>I would like to reiterate what MaiDust said, A 2100 is not a poor test score and gettin a 3.6 on a 4.0 scale is not bad its just not amazing. I know a guy in my school who has a 3.1 but got a 2310 on his SATs this guy is smart hes just really lazy in class plus he does a sport every season guaranteed hes not in varsity for one of those seasons but he just enjoys being outside more than sitting in a classroom. If he at least tried in class he would the val of our class and probably have a 4.0.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
SAT = performance over five hours in a classroom.

[/quote]

Sounds like somebody screwed their test up.</p>

<p>Really, it measures all the math, reading, and writing one has learned through 10th grade.</p>

11

<p>Well, no, that isn't exactly what SAT measures. It does measure those things to a certain extent, but it also measures a kind of undefined pattern-recognition ability. This is why two people with the same grades in the same school can get quite different scores. In other words, the SAT does measure aptitude, but it isn't exactly scholastic aptitude. This explains why somebody I know got a 4 on the APUSH test, but a 790 on the SAT USH Subject test.</p>

12

<p>"And GPA should be looked at in perspective"......</p>

<p>But not all colleges have the time or resources to do so......IMO, and from this last year's admissions season, GPA trumps SAT/ACT in terms of admission success, especially in large universities and schools that do not/can not thoroughly examine school profiles......</p>

13

<p>Perhaps the best source on this is the National Association of College Admissions Counselors (NACAC). They surveyed the universe of college adcomms and found that GPA was weighted most heavily, but that the rigor of the courses taken and the standardized test scores also played a very large role in their evaluation of a candidate. Here is how they viewed the various elements of an application:</p>

<p>Considerable Weight , Moderate Weight , Limited or No Weight </p>

<p>75.9% , 17.4% , 6.7% , Grades in college prep courses
61.5% , 25.3% , 13.2% , Strength of curriculum
60.4% , 27.9% , 11.7% , Standardized Test scores (SAT, ACT)
51.2% , 36.4% , 12.5% , Grades in all courses
27.9% , 30.6% , 41.5% , Essay and/or writing sample
23.1% , 38.6% , 38.3% , Class rank
21.2% , 40.7% , 38.0% , Counselor recommendation
20.8% , 31.2% , 48.1% , Student's demonstrated interest
19.5% , 41.1% , 39.3% , Teacher recommendation
10.4% , 23.1% , 66.5% , Interview
7.6% , 37.0% , 55.4% , Extra-curricular activities
7.6% , 23.5% , 68.8% , Subject test scores (AP, IB)
6.3% , 13.4% , 80.4% , State graduation exam scores
5.2% , 8.5% , 86.3% , SAT II scores
2.9% , 21.5% , 75.5% , Work</p>

14

<p>But even those numbers are, to a large extent, somebody's subjective evaluation of how various factors are subjectively evaluated. You couldn't really know how these factors compared in importance without a very detailed study of results. (Although obviously schools that don't require SAT II's probably really don't consider them much.)</p>

15

<p>Hunt,
Good points as these are broad indications rather than a specific formula. As for SAT IIs, however, I think that there are very few "top" colleges that don't require them, so their relevance is high for students interested in that top tier of colleges.</p>

16

<p>The thing is, there are many people out there who have low SAT/GPA's but also nationally recognized awards and distinctions such as Siemens or USAMO, which the colleges value VERY highly</p>

17

<p>Unfortunately standardized tests have become very important in college admissions. The reason is that today across the country, high schools all grade differently. In one state for example there could be schools that grade on a 5.0 scale, schools that grade on a 4.0 scale, schools that grade on a 100 point scale. There are schools that weight grades and those that don't. In one state, two students can have identical grades in every class throughout high school, and one can graduate with a 4.8, and one can graduate with a 98 which is less than a 4.0.
Because every curriculum is different, there is no way to judge a student based on his or her gpa. Regional admission officers travel to schools in their area to find out the rigor of curriculum the school offers, but even that is not enough. This is why admission officers disregard the gpa and look at the actual grade the student received in the class. For example, if a student earned a 93 in an honors US history, that student may have five points added by their school to their grade and it becomes a 98, which is still less than a 4.0 at that school. At another school, the 93 may be converted to a 4.5. Every school is different. Because of this admission officers care about how you did in the class before any weights are added and the rigor of curriculum you took.
There are students from top prep schools in the country who are accepted to Harvard, Yale and Princeton ect with 3.5 averages because there are no added weights given to honors or AP classes and the curriculum is very challenging and it is difficult to get an A. Thus a 3.5 average is considered a very high gpa
If you notice in books that list the SAT scores required for each college, you will see no listing about what gpa is required. There is no gpa requirement because it is meaningless. Every school grades differently.
Many colleges will publish what percent of the students they admitted were in the top 10%, top 20% however.
Grades are very important in college admissions but what they are looking for is if you took the most rigorous curriculum that your school offered, and how you did in that curriculum, and how you did versus other students who took the same curriculum
If you are seeing high grades and low gpa, you may not be understanding the gpa that that student actually has. You may be reading about students who had a 3.6 gpa, when another student had a 4.5. The reality is that they may have the same grades.
Grades and rigor of curriculum are very important as are standardized test scores. However at most competitive schools, that is just the determining point if the applicant has the academic credentials. Equally important are the extra curriculars in which the admission officers look to see if you have developed interests and passions over time, shown leadership, commitment, achievement ect. Then of course your teacher recommendations and your personal statement. It is the package they are looking at</p>

18

<p>It is factually correct that Harvard says explicitly that it has no minimum G.P.A. requirement for admission. Harvard admission officers are acutely aware of the differing grading standards in different high schools. My notes don't reflect such an explicit statement on that issue by Yale, Princeton, or Stanford admission officers, but I'm sure that's the general practice at all of the most selective colleges. What courses you take in high school makes a bigger difference than what your grade average is.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
Really, it measures all the math, reading, and writing one has learned through 10th grade.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with this, as I have observed that students who score high on the SAT Reasoning Test critical reading and writing sections have been avid readers for years, and students who score high on the math section have been practicing their understanding of the rather elementary math on the SAT for years.</p>

20

<p>"What courses you take in high school makes a bigger difference than what your grade average is."</p>

<p>I think that's true, but I'm not sure it works in two directions. I think taking weak courses will discount a 4.0, but for HYP, I'm not sure how much tough courses will elevate a 3.5. The very top schools can probably get plenty of 4.0s from tough programs.</p>