Something very scary and very wrong is happening

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Some college students are religious. Not all religions support transgenders. Should colleges invite pro-transgender speakers?

Why colleges have to be in the middle of these issues? Why can’t they just teach subject matter? If humanities have to have these discussions as part of their curriculum, they should do it in specially designated spaces. The ticket prices shall include the cost of policing.

Tuition for humanities shall include items related to police presence during political discussions. They want to have “conversations”? They have to pay for it.

Has Murray ever come out and said that all races have the same capacity for intelligence or stupidity? A simple statement would clear that up?

If so, I would be open to what he has to say about other topics. However, if not, everything else FOR ME is tainted.

It’s been a while since I read the Bell Curve, but I think Murray mentioned that there are more variations within groups than between groups, but that there are still variations between groups.

For example, I could name some women who are taller, stronger, and more competitive than some men I know. But I still think that as a group, men are more likely to be taller, stronger, and more competitive. Anyone who claims to support diversity and can’t accept that people are…diverse…is possibly in the left tail of the bell curve.

So if someone walks into your office or applies for a job, judge that person as an individual, not as part of a group. But if you notice that you get more women in elementary education and more men in the physics graduate program, don’t get too fired up to make things even out. Just don’t prevent the men from teaching first grade or the women from doing physics research if that’s what they like to do.

And people feeling threatened as a result of events of the last year is no reason to limit speakers like Murray. In fact, there is maybe more need for someone who can study differences between groups without getting emotional about it. Dispassionate discussion is a good thing for troubling times. The students should expect the faculty to set a good example of how to adult, as the kids say.

As for SPLC, well, we know where a road paved with good intentions gets you. They started out doing important work, but as America has gotten more progressive, they have to look harder for things to fix. And their assessment of Murray is risible.

"They started out doing important work, but as America has gotten more progressive, they have to look harder for things to fix. "

Interesting how perspectives and experiences can be so different. I find no shortage of things to fix.

“all races have the same capacity for intelligence or stupidity?”

I am wondering if there is any research that proves that and what the methodology would be?

That very same talk was cited as a key motivator for the murder of Vincent Chin in 1982 by a White Detroit auto plant supervisor and his stepson because they mistook him as one of the Japanese who were “taking away American jobs”.

They also went to the effort to track him down for ~30 minutes before tracking him down and beating him to death.

Keep in mind that this was a period when perceptions of “Japanese are taking away all our jobs” was prevalent and was brought home clear to me as an elementary school kid in the '80s in the mass media and a few racist bullies* in my old neighborhood. .

  • One of them ended up getting expelled from my Catholic School and another was threatened with such a penalty in front of me and his parents after the principal called him out for his pattern of racist bullying against me and other Asian-American/non-White kids and called out his parents for ignoring multiple notices she sent of their son's misbehavior.

I’m with doschicos. Based on recent events, not at all clear that this country is all that progressive. Still plenty of things to fix.

“Why colleges have to be in the middle of these issues? Why can’t they just teach subject matter?”

The answer to that is colleges are supposed to be there, not as a trade school teaching a trade, they are supposed to be places where new ideas are tested out, where things are researched and discussed, colleges are not supposed to be a continuation of high school. It is why professors do research and are encouraged to publish, it is why university science professors do research, or engineering professors, these aren’t bastions of the trade equivalent of the 3r’s. One of the things required when territories became states was to have an agricultural college (and I believe a mining college in some places), with the idea of advancing the art of agriculture which then was cutting edge important, they didn’t want farmers using the same techniques they had since the paleolithic age, they wanted knowledge to go forward.

Personally I usually hear complaints about the ‘drivel’ universities and colleges come up with (and some of it quite honestly I would agree with them about it, but that is another story) from people who are conservative, yet when I point out to them that conservative ideas in things like supply side economics, or in economic liberalization (associated with lessening regulation and such) came out of universities originally, within the economic sphere much of the conservative agenda came from places like the University of Chicago, so it isn’t just ‘liberal propoganda’ or whatnot.

I am troubled when I hear about violence against those they disagree with and I think that speakers I find vile, whether it is Milo what’s his face, or anyone from the University of Chicago economics department, or for that matter anti porn feminists on the other end, should be invited to speak, I had more than a few controversial speakers in when I was in college on both ends of things. Those opposed should use that as an opportunity to protest, if the person does a Q and A challenge their ideas, point out their lies, write op eds in the local paper or school paper, post stuff on social media teaching about how stupid the speaker is (in their eyes). When it comes to ideas and beliefs, I think that someone repugnant should be allowed to speak, it should be encouraged to have challenging speakers, but I also think kids have the right to make their voices heard, too, both for and against.

I also think their is disingenuousness over pointing out things like Murray at Middlebury, or Milo poo poo face at Berkeley, as examples of ‘liberal censorship of conservative ideas’, when conservative schools don’t exactly bring in people from the other side (talking here religious schools and the like). I think any school worth its salt should be bringing in people who challenge ideas, and also encouraging people to argue back, too.

+1 for making me laugh at “Milo poo poo face”.

Just because you see plenty of things to fix, that doesn’t mean SLPC is doing a good job of finding appropriate ones.

Again, different perspectives are interesting. We disagree once again.

@doschicos:
I just read your post about prejudice and hate against groups throughout our history, and I thought of something I heard on the NYC NPR station the other evening. A muslim group wants to build a mosque in Bayonne, and there have been a flurry of protests against it, some arguing (which is often a cover for bigotry) that it would bring too much traffic, etc, but they had one woman who openly stood up and said that the mosque represented a threat, that the violence and such associated with Islam proved it was not a religion, that no religion promoted that, and it would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous. Did this woman even know of the many ills done in religions name, the crusades and pograms and the Holocaust that came out of religious bigotry, often promoted by other religious groups. Did she know the history of Catholics in this country (from her name I would guess she likely was Catholic, given she was of Italian ancestry), how much they were hated? Did she ever read about Al Smith when he ran for president in 1928 and the vitriol aimed at him, how the vatican would control what he would do as president (when he lost the election, Smith supposedly sent a telegram to the pope (or jested he would, I never found out if he actually did this) saying “don’t bother coming to the US, I lost”, or that JFK spent a lot of time on the campaign trail assuring people he would not be told by the church what to do?

Especially when times are tough people look for scapegoats, lot easier than actually trying to solve the real issues, which may not be easily fixed, and that is what we are seeing. I wish I could say this was anything new, but this kind of thing has been present since the founding of this country, the battles between rural and urban, educated vs ‘the wisdom of the plain people’, Catholic versus protestant (the nativist battles of the middle 19th century often pitted protestant Irish who had come earlier against the waves of mostly Catholic Irish immigrants due to the potato famine), Jews have often been the scapegoat of hard times, during the 1930’s Charles Coughlan and people like Huey Long blamed “Jewish Financiers and bankers” for the depression.Sadly, it often has been good politics, my big hope is that the people who don’t buy into the hate mongering and the like will prevail, as they have in the past, ashamed at what their fellow citizens are doing, but it usually gets a lot more ugly before it gets better.

To comment on the title of the thread -

Yes, I agree that something very scary and very wrong is happening here…

To me, “The Middlebury Incident” signals yet another escalation in the cultural battle between “the left” and “the right”. It appears that the “far right” has now gained enough momentum to sprout (or revitalize) a “far left” in response.

The fact that people wearing black masks and clothing were seen at Middlebury is concerning. This is the uniform of the “antifa” - a international organization that appears to be gaining traction world-wide. They appear to have been associated with the Berkeley incident. Here is a related report from the BBC, but Google around and draw your own conclusions…

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39004753

It seems to me as though the world has been here before, yet we appear to be following the same trajectory. Culturally, have we collectively forgotten the past?
Does that mean that we are condemned to relive it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fascism

In the 70s and 80s a whole lot of folks didn’t think the Klan an appropriate one, for all kinds of reasons. I’m old and remember.

Agree with your thoughts @musicprnt . What’s the saying? “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”. ETA: cross-posted with @mastadon I see. :slight_smile:

“during the 1930’s Charles Coughlan and people like Huey Long blamed “Jewish Financiers and bankers” for the depression”
Some of that language is going on now in are country along with a large uptick in anti-semitism. :frowning:

I had never really thought of Middlebury’s student body as intolerant. But now find myself using this incident as an example to my HS junior of the type of colleges to which he, a person of moderate to slightly liberal views, should not apply.

the dawn of the human race, you mean.

Oh, my. It’s the right’s fault the left is rioting. It’s just that (darn) Nixon…

“Oh, my. It’s the right’s fault the left is rioting.”
If you can’t see at least some of this factoring in, you are drinking too much Kool-Aid. To use another often quoted saying, “You reap what you sow.”

I wouldn’t take that excuse from my kids or anyone else’s. And I drink a fair amount of wine, but no Kool Aid.