@Ohiodad51 I actually tried to do that yesterday but gave up after the first few paragraphs of the transcript of an interview with Kristol and Murray. He is talking about how white working class communities have deteriorated. It was an interview about his more recent book “Coming Apart”
The “too much” after “hit their wives” and the idea that they “functioned in terms of marriage” when men hit their wives made me not care what else he had to say.
Letter from AEI Club Leadership re: Murray’s talk:
https://middleburycampus.com/article/letter-from-aei/
The opinion of one student on why he was unwilling to be an audience to Murray:
https://middleburycampus.com/article/why-im-declining-aeis-invitation-to-argue/
His comments on that AEI link provided sure didn’t make me like him any better for several reasons, one being his description of one female student. 8-|
“What is it that they do not want to hear?” Racist and hate based speech cloaked in the context of intellectualism. Whats next advocating for the people in white sheets having the right to say whatever they want on campus?? It is not okay in my book. I don’t want this country to start looking like South Africa
How many of you that are throwing stones at Charles Murray have actually read “The Bell Curve”? And if so, where exactly in that book is he being racist? Or knowingly spewing inaccurate information?
What I do know is that when The Bell Curve was published, about 50 academics wrote a letter to the WSJ stating that the book represented mainstream science. And that the best known critic of Charles Murray at the time, Stephen Jay Gould had to commit academic fraud in The Mismeasure of Man in order to try and refute Charles Murray’s book.
Here is the text of the WSJ letter referenced above http://www.intelligence.martinsewell.com/Gottfredson1997.pdf
and here is the Wiki article about it that includes some criticism of the letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_Science_on_Intelligence
The sad thing about the link in #81 where the student articulates his reasons for not wanting to attend, is that he relies on things that simply were never articulated in The Bell Curve.
I can’t comment on Coming Apart as I have never read the whole book.
I find it a bit humorous that at the end of the day, if you read enough of what he writes, what Murray really believes is that the Asians and the Jews are unquestionably the highest achievers – and he himself is neither.
For those of us in the minority community it is anything but humorous. I had a young student on Thursday tell me how she has been taunted before tests. She is told she won’t do well on the test because she is Mexican.
It is one thing for adults to tell the kids to shake it off, but you know, it is heavy burden these 14 year old kids are carrying and they are tired of it.
I wish to God that I could tell them that things will get better but I really have my doubts. This is not just an intellectual exercise in debate for us.
Ok? And an undergrad who read the book for a class decided that a work by by two Harvard professors, one with PhD from Harvard, the other with a PhD from MIT, know so little of their field that their research and arguments that their actual conclusions are untethered from reality. And this makes sense to you?
It’s hypocritical of affirmative action supporters to accuse Murray of racism.
@SnowballCity - Well being a woman I am also a member of a minority community at which Murray takes aim.
If it bothers you substitute the word" ironic" for “humorous.”
@Ohiodad51 You were the one who claimed the students did not have a passing familiarity with Murray’s work.
Hmmm the Southern Poverty Law Center has called him a racist
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/charles-murray
Some quotes from the SPLC
"According to Murray, disadvantaged groups are disadvantaged because, on average, they cannot compete with white men, who are intellectually, psychologically and morally superior. Murray advocates the total elimination of the welfare state, affirmative action and the Department of Education, arguing that public policy cannot overcome the innate deficiencies that cause unequal social and educational outcomes.
In his own words:
“A huge number of well-meaning whites fear that they are closet racists, and this book tells them they are not. It’s going to make them feel better about things they already think but do not know how to say.”
—regarding his book, Losing Ground, quoted in “Daring Research or Social Science Pornography?: Charles Murray,” The New York Times Magazine, 1994”
He does not represent mainstream science except in the alternative fact world. The dude is down right scary
From a summary regarding the book
" Much of the work referenced by The Bell Curve was funded by the Pioneer Fund, which aims to advance the scientific study of heredity and human differences, and has been accused of promoting scientific racism.
Evolutionary biologist Joseph L. Graves described The Bell Curve as an example of racist science, containing all the types of errors in the application of scientific method that have characterized the history of scientific racism:
1.claims that are not supported by the data given
2.errors in calculation that invariably support the hypothesis
3.no mention of data that contradict the hypothesis
4.no mention of theories and data that conflict with core assumptions
5.bold policy recommendations that are consistent with those advocated by racists."
Scientific Racism!!!
I too am a member of a minority community. And there is nothing in Murray’s work that I find to be racist.
Many of the comments on this thread remind me of this old law quote: “If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If the law is on your side, pound the law. If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound the table.”
I see a lot of people pounding the table, rather than pointing to specific things that they find wrong with Murray’s work (and lest you call me a fanboy, I actually can point out some issues with his work).
Dr. Graves is known for the argument race doesn’t exist biologically. If race doesn’t exist, can you agree with me we should eliminate affirmative action?
@hebegebe there is a lot of scientific criticism of Murray. @ohiodad51 Ram Dass was a Harvard professor. He was a little detached
@collegedad - one of my favorite quotes is attributed to Ram Dass:
I think he is “detached” in a good way.
@roethlisburger I think just the opposite. Affirmative action is tying to account for disparities in circumstances.
It is clear from the Murray’s work that we need affirmative action to help women and minorities that are disadvantaged by Mother Nature. I do provide more support to my daughter than to my son.