Son (and dad) finding it hard to ignore ASU and NMF package

Parents Forum
41

<p>"To me, I would take a school that gives you some good money but would be happy to go to even if you lose the scholarship."</p>

<p>The reality of the situation is that the hypothetical I posed - ASU PLUS $190k v. Ivy is quite rare. First of all, with the exception of future premeds (whom I definitely think would be better off at ASU Honors under this scenario), most parents and students WOULDN'T spend the $190k they'd have available to them for educational purposes. We are so fixated on colleges (Hey, this is a college site), that we spend little time or energy thinking about what education really could be without it, or appended to it - certainly not costing $190k. Secondly, parents ready to splurge the $190k on an Ivy likely have a little left over for other things, or so is my experience. (At my alma mater and at Amherst, the median income of the full-payers has to be at least in the upper 200k range, and I expect that at many of the Ivies it is even higher.) Thirdly, for those who need some aid, I expect they get it elsewhere. </p>

<p>I still stand on what I originally wrote. For the vast majority of students, ASU Honors PLUS $190k actually spent on extra educational opportunities is educationally much superior to any of the Ivies. It might or might not be better economically (i.e. invest the $190k when the student enters). But I doubt that many families (with the exception of the premeds) would be willing (or able) to frame the question this way.</p>

42

<p>Hi, Mini, responding to your reply up above (post #26), yes, you were emphasizing what is possible EDUCATIONALLY if one can make an economical choice of an undergraduate program, and I should have picked up on that the first time I replied to you. How that balances out varies from learner to learner. </p>

<p>I've had the privilege of meeting you in my state twice, and I know you attended one of the more elite LACs, an undergraduate college at a much higher level of selectivity than the one I attended here. But I'm not sure, off-hand, how recently you've checked the engineering programs at various undergraduate colleges (the OP's concern) or whether you've ever been on the campuses of some of the top schools with engineering majors (including Harvard). I've been to the campuses (not particularly recently, but some as recently as 1998), and of course because of my son's interests I'm continually researching undergraduate programs that might appeal to a math-liking, and perhaps engineering-liking, young person. </p>

<p>It has been my privilege, as a state-university graduate, to learn Chinese well enough (after living abroad) to travel all over the United States as a Chinese-English interpreter. One frequently requested visit by official visitors to the United States from China is a visit to one or more elite university campuses, so I have been to most of them. I think it is not a correct comparison to say that the classroom and dorm room experience at, say, Harvard is almost the same as the experience at ASU. I've been to Cambridge, and I have been to Tempe (where I bought a T-shirt reading "Arizona State University: Truth, Knowledge, a Great Tan") and there are educationally relevant differences between the campuses. The fellow students at Harvard provide much more learning opportunity, as do the FABULOUS art museums at Harvard (which I have toured as interpreter for an artist), as do Harvard's phenomenal libraries, as does the surrounding metropolitan area of Boston-Cambridge. Phoenix is a nice town, but one does have to spend money to get away from there to get a good education to a degree that is not as strictly necessary for a student in Boston. Moreover (I know this better about MIT than about Harvard, but I think the same principle applies), the students at the very most elite, high-list-price colleges actually can get substantial travel grants, paid research opportunities, and other perqs of educational value for no additional out-of-pocket expense once they are admitted. So when a state university honors program (such as the one we look at here) says it provides, for example, a research stipend, that may only bring the program up to equality with HMP, not beat what's on offer at the other schools initially. </p>

<p>I see you were replying to another participant regarding alcohol abuse on campus. This is a worrysome issue to me, as the whole culture of drunkenness seems to have got worse at many campuses since our generation. (You have shared the figures on CC before, for which I am grateful.) I don't have any particular point of view on where my son would be at lowest risk for having classmates or dorm mates who might try to push him into binge drinking. I hear from the parents of math-liking young people at the elite schools mostly that their kids continue to be heavily into math after enrolling at those schools. I hope my son always finds computer programming more alluring than ethanol. Your point is granted that it may be less pervasive to abuse alcohol on a commuter campus than on a residential campus--but are the students who stay out of the drinking culture those who live off campus (as I did, in my dad) or those who necessarily stay near campus with other students because they have no family in town?</p>

43

<p>Chinese at ASU plus all summers expense paid learning Chinese in China, and five years studying Chinese in China vs. four years at Harvard. I do know the differences. ASU PLUS trumps Harvard, and by a long distance. </p>

<p>I know what the opportunities offered at the elites are. Hey, my d. is in Florence. But I am in a situation that we couldn't have afforded a year in Florence any other way. </p>

<p>"So when a state university honors program (such as the one we look at here) says it provides, for example, a research stipend, that may only bring the program up to equality with HMP, not beat what's on offer at the other schools initially."</p>

<p>Absolutely agree. And that says an awful lot, doesn't it? One is free, the other costs $47k a year. (Now they are not all created equal. My d. had a paid research assistantship in her first two years specifically created around her interests - NONE of the Ivies was able to offer anything close, even though their list prices are the same. Neither could my alma mater.) At that point, we haven't even begun to spend the $190k bonus. (For an engineer, for example, imagine three years as a volunteer hydrologic engineer working in Africa on enhancing community water systems, with no money worries whatsoever. And then imagine what that would do to jumpstart a career! and with $100k+ left over.) </p>

<p>"Your point is granted that it may be less pervasive to abuse alcohol on a commuter campus than on a residential campus--but are the students who stay out of the drinking culture those who live off campus (as I did, in my dad) or those who necessarily stay near campus with other students because they have no family in town?"</p>

<p>It's a great question, for which there is no easy answer. One major difference seems to be that the mix of ages on some college campuses is a major mitigating factor in alcohol/drug use. Some small group of colleges are outlyers and essentially enroll only 17-22 year olds. But the median age of undergraduate students in the U.S. is 24.5. Another major difference seems to be wealth - for whatever reason, there is an association with higher campus median family incomes and binge/heavy drinking. Oddly enough, of course, wealth is the chief protector against dropping out as well - family income problems (often related to health) is the single factor most closely associated with students dropping out of college. It's basically why you can take a school like my alma mater with a huge heavy drinking problem and have a 95% (or so) 6-year graduation rate.</p>

44

<p>Thank you for the responses. Engineering does seem to be a unique major in some ways I guess. Non-serious students do not last long and drop or change majors rather quickly. Leaving only the serious students with different talent levels.</p>

<p>ASU was on the list originally due to its engineering program. It was crossed off due to the weather or lack of in the area. The NM package has brought it back onto the list. My son prefers larger schools in Urban settings or at least within 100 miles or a decent sized city. Anything under 5k students was scratched early. ASU has some interesting connections with NASA as does CU Boulder.</p>

<p>I have talked an engineer from Boeing I know and he says the company does seem to have certain schools it likes to hire engineers from but many schools they hire from are nowhere to be found at the top of the USNEWS list. Prestige seems to less of an issue in the West I guess. He based his observations on where the engineers are from he works with and supervises. I have heard this from several companies now.</p>

<p>I agree with sticker in that we are finding many state and non- Ivy privates have great co-op programs and my son loves the idea of working for six months to a year and drawing a salary while learning the engineering in the "real" world.</p>

<p>Northwestern and USC are getting applications as well for those of you who brought up USC, it is on the radar.</p>

45

<p>I've been to both U of MN (undergrad) and ASU (grad) and both were great academically. The ASU campus is beautiful and the Tempe/Phoenix area is fascinating. Is it a good fit for the OPs son??? I have no idea. But it's a free ride. No one is saying, "Send in your deposit." Some of us are saying, "Can't hurt to check it out." There are some fields where a certain degree from a certain school matters. For the most part, it doesn't matter much or at all. Fit can matter a great deal, but that's usually not about prestige; more about personality. IMO, more harm is done to kids by expecting them to go to a given college or U. than they can ever expect to get back by going there. It's a terrible burden to put on a kid that they have to go to HYP or WAS. Can't we love the kid we're given?</p>

46

<p>By the way, I just checked out the ASU web site on NMF scholarships. Renewal of these scholarships requires an overall 3.25 GPA and NOT 3.5 for 2007. This should be doable for a sharp, hardworking kid.</p>

47

<p>ROLF </p>

<p>Bethievt -- good post you should meet the other twin. What an individualist with not a care in the world. He could care less what others think. Sort of healthy actually.</p>

<p>More about his college choices later ;)</p>

48

<p>When I researched engineering programs, I found Georgia Tech ranked quite high, at far less cost than others. In addition, they would accept AP classes as well as college classes. Other colleges were the same, and S would have graduated with MS in 4 years (whether engineering or CS). Still, he chose a "dream" school that was full pay. Opportunities at this school abound for well-paying research jobs, internships, and upper class merit scholarships. Friends at other schools have also done well. The biggest financial firms and computer companies interview at more than just HYPM.
I took the Honors program at a big U. I had my small group of friends, all of whom were social but still focussed on med/grad school. All one really needs is a small group of friends. Still, I often wonder what would have happened if I had matriculated at a more "elite-type" school that was more $$$.
trying to find the right fit is hard. It is so hard to predict the future. My S has earned more $$ than any of his original merit $$.</p>

49

<p>Keep in mind the overall quality of the school, the Honors program is part of the whole university. Only go to ASU if the fit is good regardless of the $$ saved. You want the best education that is feasible, not just the cheapest. Consider the caliber of the non-honors courses as it is likely at least some courses taken will be with the regular student body. As I recall, schools only list NM Scholars, they do not include finalists in the lists; some schools give fewer scholarships but attract many finalists, so do not use only the number of merit scholars as a guide to the school's caliber. Be patient, it is still early in the season, keep researching; ASU will keep sending you mailings into June and finalists have a chance in the spring to revise their first choice school.</p>

50

<p>
[quote]
"Heat, Humidity and lack of Skiing...He says at least it is not humid there and there is some skiing within a three hour drive of Phoenix."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The real heat (highs routinely > 100) occurs in June-Sept.
First day of Fall classes this year was Aug. 21, graduation May 10, so you can see the overlap. As for the rest of the year-well, today the high was 87, low 60, humidity 33%. It doesn't get any better than that.</p>

<p>As for skiing, don't get his hopes up. With the multi-year drought in the west the skiing season at the Snowbowl in the San Francisco Peaks north of Flagstaff has been very limited for several years now. This past winter it didn't open until March 17, if I recall correctly, and it closed a couple of weeks later. We are supposed to have an El Nino year so this winter should be better. The operators of the Snowbowl want to install snow making equipment, but the Navajo are objecting on religious grounds and the matter is held up in court. I think the White Mountain, AZ, ski area is a bit further away. Brian Head, UT, is a 7+ hour drive.</p>

<p>I realize these aren't the primary reasons to chose or not chose to go to ASU but if they are important factors he should know the situation.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
As I recall, schools only list NM Scholars, they do not include finalists in the lists; some schools give fewer scholarships but attract many finalists, so do not use only the number of merit scholars as a guide to the school's caliber.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Do you really think there is such a huge difference between a NM commended kid and a finalist that it would be impossible to share intellectually stimulating classes and discussions? Aren't we talking about a range of 50,000 commended kids and 15,000 finalists spread out over the entire US? With commended kids in states like NJ holding much higher scores than those finalists from many western & southern states anyway? I think it's a silly distinction, particularly as it is based on a one day test...</p>

52

<p>A friend's son went to ASU on full ride National Merit scholarship but lasted there only one semester. He didn't find the students there very friendly and felt he didn't fit in. This from a popular, Prom King type kid from the midwest! </p>

<p>Definitely visit any place you plan to attend especially if it is far from home - the more time you can spend on campus the better to make sure the "fit" is there.</p>

53

<p>"Party Schools"</p>

<p>Enough already. Come on parents.. they are what you raised. If you did it right, no one could force your child by simple peer pressure to do anything they didn't want. Last time I checked I haven't found a college that puts a gun to your head and beer in your hand. I am tired of reading parent after parent moaning about a "party school" when in reality it is saying "I don't trust my parenting skills enough to trust my child's judgement when away from me." </p>

<p>Enough already. We cannot stop our young adults from doing or trying things they are interested in. Instead over the 18 years prior we should have done enough parenting wise to give them the wisdom to think rationally and make decisions for themselves. At some point you have to step back and see if your parenting took. </p>

<p>Our children HAVE to grow up at some point. Do you really want an adult man or woman unable to choose for themselves? Isn't life going to present many choices for our children? I understand it's natural to worry, I do. However, have faith in what you've done for 18 years not being tossed aside after 5 minutes on campus. </p>

<p>As far as ASU, it's a big campus, hot and the honors dorms are OK, not really better or worse than most schools. The thing I found interesting was the honors dorms are fenced in compound style. It gave an odd feeling of being separate from the general population, either to keep em in or the others out. </p>

<p>There are alot of good schools (ASU included) that will do alot for NM kids. Look around to find your fit. Both of mine were able to find LAC that picked up the costs via several scholarships and merit awards. If you visit ASU, take the drive and visit UA as well. We actually liked UA better for layout and size.</p>

54

<p>When I, and I assume others, discuss the Partying level of schools, it's not that I'm worried about whether my kids get caught up in it. That's not the point, at least in my household. they're level-headed people; I'd expect that they might try drinking, but that this wouldn't be what they're lives revolved around. At my D's first school,and at the one i attended first, this was basically the entire social scene. It's just not that much fun if it's not what you are into.</p>

<p>My D transfered, and had an entirely different experience at the second school, as I've said before. She actually drank some then, when she hadn't at the first school. But the second school, it was more like sharing a few drinks around the table with friends, vs. puking after copious amounts of Kool-aid flavored liquor out of a garbage can, which seemed to be the evening entertainment of choice in her first school.</p>

<p>That's what I (and she) didn't like--not some non-existent moral dilemma about peer pressure drinking.</p>

55

<p>I just noticed that the NMF scholarship program at University of Arizona only has a 3.0 GPA requirement for renewal. Interesting...</p>

56

<p>This reply is in response to the discussion about ASUs size. ASU now has the largest enrollment in the US and my DD would prefer a smaller school. </p>

<p>During our visit to ASU, we spoke with several students from the Honors College about ASUs size. They all said that living in the honors dorm and being a part of the Honors College allowed them to be a part of a smaller group. Some students said that the lecture classes were very large (200-300) but that most classes were small (up to 19) and their interaction with professors was high. Many were working on research projects with professors.</p>

<p>I was impressed with what these sophomore, junior and senior level students had accomplished and with their leadership positions on campus. Yes, the university invited them to be on hand to talk with prospective students, but the opportunities to "shine" seem to be there.</p>

<p>My advice is to attend one of the Sun Devils Days on the Tempe campus. The first half of the day involves information sessions that students choose. One of the sessions they offer is with the Barrett Honors College. The latter half of the day involves campus tours and dormitory tour. Here is the link:
<a href="http://www.asu.edu/admissions/visitcampus/sd-days.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.asu.edu/admissions/visitcampus/sd-days.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>We live in Phoenix, and yes, summers are very hot. From October to nearly the end of May is wonderful. Humidity is always low. Tempe is a great town and ASU students have access to free public transportation. The airport is very close to campus. </p>

<p>If a student is considering ASU they should really take time for a visit.</p>

57

<p>"puking after copious amounts of Kool-aid flavored liquor out of a garbage can"</p>

<p>:) Ah, the good ole days.</p>

<p>I started to worry when I could name the organs I upchucked. I didn't know my spleen was so big....</p>

58

<p>Not sure if the U of A has a 3.0 requirement for renewal of NMF, but to remain in honors requires a 3.5.</p>

<p>It's also the only PAC-10 school that doesn't have (+) or (-) in the grading structure.</p>

59

<p>
[quote]
ASU now has the largest enrollment in the US...

[/quote]

True for one year. But anything over 10,000 seems huge to me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Enrollment figures show Ohio State University has the nation's highest public university enrollment.</p>

<p>The school's Columbus campus has 51,818 students this year. Arizona State University, which had the most students last year, is second with 51,324 students.</p>

<p>Ohio State grew by about 1,300 students in Columbus while ASU's Tempe campus enrollment fell by about 375 students since last year, according to reports released by the universities.</p>

<p>At just one year, the top title was short-lived for Arizona. In the past, OSU has usually been No. 1 in enrollment. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/vyunb%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/vyunb

[/quote]
</a>
The Tempe campus enrollment may fall further. The plan seems to be to open several satellite campuses. I think there are already four or five in the Phoenix metro area. The U of A in Tucson has an enrollment of around 34,000+.</p>

60

<p>I agree with garland re: partying. I am hearing horror stories from my friends about their kids not being able to sleep, study or find social options other than substance abuse, not use; dangerous abuse. Even at really good schools. I trust my kid to not go over the top, but I want him at a place where he'll have some company. I think most, if not all schools have serious students, but if it takes 2 years to find them, that's a lonely 2 years.</p>