<p>Big school --> heh. Miami Dade College (two-year) has over 160,000 students. That's edging up on the University of California's 200,000+ (although the UC has a lot more campuses). Of course, the CSU system has more than 400,000 students...</p>
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Enough already. Come on parents.. they are what you raised. If you did it right, no one could force your child by simple peer pressure to do anything they didn't want.
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While I agree our kids are what they are when they go to school ... what they are greatly differs ... some kids will do fine focussing on studuying within a student population that is not that prevelant; they will find their link minded souls and hang with them ... other kids will tend to gravitate towards the mean of the society within which they live; for these kids honors schools within a big State U might not be the best envrionment for them.</p>
<p>Large state schools may get a party reputation that can involve a minority of students (especially when a lot of non-students participate) but being so big it can be easier to avoid the drinking scene and find sufficient other activities than at a small school, even for regular students. The large schools have more room for diversity so there can be more ways for the school to fit the student; regardless of apparent culture. BTW, I have heard a "study hard and party hard" line about UW-Madison, the students do study, and it is easy to not party.</p>
<p>Opie: When the Honors Complex at ASU was renovated a few years back,they "fenced it in" b/c they were having some intrusion issues from the Apache Ave side of the dorm complex..some of the entrances were right on that public street.D's first year there in 2001 was the year they put up the gates.
For everyone bemoaning the idea of large U=party school and drinking culture,take alook at the thread Curmudgeon has started about things wrong with their kids school (even tough the kid loves the school).Many people are writing about drinking cultures at small schools as well. I'll say it again..if a kid wants to drink, they'll find a way at whatever size school they are at.I'll neve forget a trip we made to a fairly isolated top LAC,and while dropping S off in a dorm parking lot to see a friend,saw the lineup of kids waiting to buy alcohol out of the trunks of 2 cars of obviously non student adult entrepenuers.School population was a bout 2000 and there must have been 200 kids in the parking lot.
Please remember that at a place like ASU or other large U's with Honors programs there are far more than only NMF's roamong the Honors dorms.Not every bright kid wins a NMF.They give out many more scholarships than just those.D found a great cohort of kids there..theres about 600 living in the Center Complex (Honors dorm ) alone.
Her only huge class was a required science.Once you get into your major,classes will be small.At least you'll have a choice of classes and a choice of professors.I cant imagine being at a school where your dept has three professors, classes you need for your major are only given once every two years,and if you dislike a certain professors style you have no choice but to keep taking him over and over b/c he's the only one there.
Dont make any decisions without visitng,but I would advocate that for any size school.</p>
<p>To retain the MNF scholarship (which I have, I'm an ASU frosh), you only need a 3.25, which shouldn't be too difficult for an MNF student. I really wish I had the money to go to USC Film School, but I'm glad that I don't have to worry about financial issues. No school offered me any need-based aid and my parents make 90k a year, so I simply couldn't go to Northwestern (200k) or Berkeley, or really any other school other than Arizona State or Washington. I chose ASU because they had policy debate. Unfortunately, as soon as I got here they cut the funding for the team. Everything else about the school has been great. The knowledge level of the students seems a lot lower than the schools most of my upper or (mostly)lower class friends went to (Stanford, Harvard, etc.), which is dissapointing. But, ASU is probably the best place for a middle class student financially. If you have the money, it'd probably be better to go to a school that "fits" you. I know ASU doesn't fit me at all. I need a much smaller community to be able to have any social success, so I'm extremely lonely even in the smaller (but still huge) honors college here. If you are lower class and get enough money from an Ivy or something that you can go where you want and not have there be much of a difference financially, you should also pick a different school. But at least at ASU I can get a decent undergraduate education for a good price and spend my money on their amazing study abroad programs, or books of my choosing, or wholesome food, or whatever I feel like, rather than tuition alone.</p>
<p>On the alcohol issue: No one is going to make your child drink. Their opinions on drinking are probably already formed in high school whether you know it or not. My family has a long history of alcohol abuse, and I have chosen never to drink. That's limited me socially, but I can guarantee that it will limit you socially at Stanford, or Harvard, or USC, or UC Berkeley, or anywhere. If your kid will drink, they will drink WHEREVER they go. More smart kids might not drink and might also gravitate to Ivies, but many of them still drink, and going to a "less smart" school will not make them drink. If you have raised your kid to have strong character and they choose not to drink, other kids won't be able to make them do it. So don't let alcohol statistics cloud your judgment.</p>
<p>"Opie: When the Honors Complex at ASU was renovated a few years back,they "fenced it in" b/c they were having some intrusion issues from the Apache Ave side of the dorm complex..some of the entrances were right on that public street.D's first year there in 2001 was the year they put up the gates."</p>
<p>No offense was meant... It's just an observation. You gotta admit it has that compound look about it with the wirefencing..no?</p>
<p>We enjoyed that part of the tour and the people there a great deal. Put that on a smaller campus and bingo! it would have fit our needs. The tour guide had a very good point about majors.. ASU offers 275 of them. That's a great selling point. We talked at great length to the kids there away from tour aspect. I found them to be great if not outstanding kids. </p>
<p>The one drawback I would give ASU is this..... for crying out loud it's hotter than hell here provide some water for your northern exposure vistitors!! </p>
<p>Half way through the campus tour (and that's one big campus) I dropped off to buy some water.. pant.. pant.. pant.. it's hot there if your not used to heat. Besides ASU, UA made sure we all had "complimentary" waters (take as many as you need) when we toured there. Sometimes it's the little things that are overlooked that make an impact. </p>
<p>That aside.. ASU would be a great place for an honors student if they wanted size and heat and 275 major choices. For ours.. she wanted seasons and to be closer to home. Mom really wanted UA as mom loves the heat and sun. Me I'm an Irishman, a hot day is 60.</p>
<p>Money....is it really a lifelong issue for most NMFs? An American NMF with a ticket to university should assume they will be able to earn a middle to upper class living no matter what degree they earn and no matter what university they attend. That's the good fortune of having been born in America with brains and elbow grease to spare. </p>
<p>So, while I agree with mini and Warren Buffet about investing in yourself and investing in non-university opportunities--and have done so for my boys--I don't think money should be a driving factor in school selection for NMFs. </p>
<p>For 1100 SAT scorers, yes. For 2.5 GPAs, yes. </p>
<p>For NMFs, no way.</p>
<p>The limiting factor of ASU honors and Anywhere Honors is that most of the students will have the same predictable suburban background from that state. Befriending keen peers who have grown up in all kinds of different states, in all kinds of rural, suburban and urban settings is worth $190K--at an Ivy or any other private school with a diverse student population</p>
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Befriending keen peers who have grown up in all kinds of different states, in all kinds of rural, suburban and urban settings is worth $190K--at an Ivy or any other private school with a diverse student population
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<p>Maybe on your planet, but on mine, I'm reluctant to suggest to my NMSF son that he start his working life with $190,000 in debt and grad school expenses still to come. Actually, I'd spend a boat-load of time and effort talking him out of it. On a 15-year note at 8% that's payments of $1,800 a month. That's pretty heavy dues for going to school "with a diverse student population."</p>
<p>Your NMSF son doesn't have to come up with $190K. Don't even try to kid me, Rick Tyler. However, I know a few sets of parents who have 'traded' their kids a car or straight cash if the kid accepts a scholarship at a lesser university. Except for one athlete, that 'bargaining' hasn't produced great results, in my observation. Some of the results have been really poor, in fact.</p>
<p>I borrowed money to attend my private university and had no problem paying it back--as an architect. I don't think 'money' is the be all and end all. I don't think substantial money is that hard to come by--if you are living in America with brains and elbow grease. </p>
<p>That's my planet and I am sticking to it.</p>
<p>I know lots of extremely bright kids, including our HS val who turned down great Us because of money. In the planet I live on, unfortunately $190,000 + grad school is a LOT of money. We are glad our S (who is a NMF) was able to choose a private school that awarded 1/2 tuition merit aid so that the family out-of-pocket is a bit more than $100K+ IF he graduates in 4 years; we are glad we are able to give our S this option. </p>
<p>Many of us have other kiddos to education, aging parents, health issues, retirement & other demands on our resources. $190K makes a big difference on my planet.</p>
<p>I completely agree with you cheers, concerning the fact that high achieving students will do great no matter where they go to school. </p>
<p>Assuming the student has the potential to be anything and is ambitious, I think the most important factors are fit, opportunities, and money, not necessarily in that order though.</p>
<p>If your son/daughter would be happy at ASU, get an education for free, and then having plenty of opportunity to enter the working world at their leisure and not have to worry about paying back loans, then great.</p>
<p>Conversely, if the student would be truly happy at Harvard or Swarthmore, then go for it no matter what the cost, because the biggest problem a student can face is the loss of their ambition, which could easily result from being in an atmosphere that isn't conducive for that person's growth.</p>
<p>The main reason I think the public university with a scholarship route is great, for me at least, is that after I'm out, I can basically work wherever I want, travel to another country and volunteer/work there, or basically do whatever I think would be the best for me, and not have to worry about money at all. Living with the constant pressure of loans wouldn't be much of a problem if you're going to start working in a fairly good job right away and not do anything out of the ordinary, but it just really limits the possibilities.</p>
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<p>I get the impression your son is interested in science or engineering subjects, because I have seen you post on the MIT forum, haven't I? If an undergraduate student is any good in science, technology, engineering, or mathematics (STEM) in the United States, that student is going to get a full fellowship for graduate school. Maybe English majors need money from mom and dad to go to graduate school (and maybe English majors need to go to graduate school to even get a decent job), but no STEM graduate who has a good undergraduate record needs to pay a dime out of pocket to get a Ph.D. degree.</p>
<p>^Maybe things are different now, but as an English major, grad school (in English) was completely free for me.</p>
<p>My kid was offered free ride + at state u, wouldn't even consider it due to issues of fit, etc. IF she would have been willing, it would have definitely been worth a close look. The money is highly significant to us; we have more kids, and now she's talking about law school..</p>
<p>My understanding is some of these honors programs are the real deal, and some are just window-dressing. If you can find a real one that will save $$$$ this is worth considering if you are in my shoes.</p>
<p>The fancy school is not necessarily better in all cases. You might do relatively worse academically at a high-pressure school filled with top students. You may tend to avoid classes of interest because too many pre-somethings may be in them and/or they would be too demanding. You may find that there is too much competition for the available research opportunities, so you can't get them. Small fish in a big pond.</p>
<p>The vast majority of engineers go to state U's. Engineering practice and employment is much more democratic than, say, financial industry employment.
If your kid does well there he could always "convert" his public school degree to private by enrolling in a 1 year Master of Engineering program at a tonier school. But chances are this would not be necessary, because probably lots of good engineering employers recruit at all the big state Us. He'd possibly get the same job he would have gotten at the fancy school.</p>
<p>At my engineering firm the grads of Cornell MIT, and Rice worked right alongside the state u grads the firm also hired, to do the exact same jobs. Promotion from that point solely depended on what you did at that firm.</p>
<p>If, upon investigation, it really looks like your kid is likely to hate it there and do poorly academically and/or socially, well then it doesn't work . Otherwise, if you're in my shoes financially try to take the money somehow. It's just too much, and the benefits of doing otherwise may be quite ephemeral, or even just plain wrong.</p>
<p>Of course if some other school will also give him lots of $$ then this is also relevant.</p>
<p>Cheers is assuming the Honors kids are homogenous at ASU. D had peers from all over the US. Arizona tends to attract adventurous types that arent afraid to venture out of their geographic limits...students and faculty as well.Interestingly, there are many Alaskan students and a large group from the Dakotas.
When she began there, there were many International students (this was Aug 2001,just prior to 9/11 and the International numbers are probably more limited now).She had a girl from Kuwait down the hall in fact,and a close friend from Japan.
And a very interesting fact about going to school in Arizona (or elsewhere in the southwest),a student will be exposed to Native American students and culture that is completely lacking in other locations in the US.Plus,there is a sizable Hispanic student population..and they are kids who are equal peers,not a few token diversity cases.
The only peer group that might be somewhat lacking is African American,which my D originally found disconcerting coming from a suburban NY,highly diverse school district.</p>
<p>Moneydad is correct about engineering employment being democratic. If ASU has a solid engineering program, I'd consider it. H is a director of engineering & we've know hundreds of engineers over the years. Nobody cares where you went to school. Really. New engineers have to hit the ground running & are grilled pretty hard during the interview process. H has hired them from MIT & NJIT without worrying about pedigree.</p>
<p>“Fit” can have, in a large part, a lot to do with attitude. While attitude will surely not overcome a truly bad fit, it can make a so-so fit into a great experience. If a student goes into the situation determined to make a go of it, he has a great chance of doing so. He will find the classes and friends that suit him. If he goes in feeling like he has “settled” for the school, he might not last the year and may even make bad choices in an unconscious effort to sabotage the experience. A full ride can tip the scale either way. For some students it will cheapen the experience. They will feel the “you get what you pay for” syndrome. For others, it will be empowering both educationally and personally. The satisfaction of being able to pay your own way in life should not be underestimated. So, see how your kid feels about the school and scholarship. How does he talk about the possible scholarship to friends and family? Does he sound proud of the school and his opportunity or does he sound apologetic about the lack of prestige?</p>
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If an undergraduate student is any good in science, technology, engineering, or mathematics (STEM) in the United States, that student is going to get a full fellowship for graduate school.
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<p>Competition in this realm is even stiffer than undergrad.</p>
<p>Is that true? When I went to graduate school in science (around 25 years ago), no one paid. Everyone was on a Training Grant or a Teaching Fellowship or something like that which paid tuition, health benefits, and a stipend which was enough to live on frugally. All of my coworkers (who attended graduate school at a wide variety of universities, ranked high and low) were in a similar situation. Have things changed that much? Maybe that is why we hear so much about students not wanting to go into science.</p>
<p>I keep reading conflicing things about the ease/difficulty of getting funding for grad school. I know when I was a student back 20+ years ago, many grad students were being paid via research grants and/or teaching assistantships (or some combo). This was for diverse fields--economics, chemistry, etc. I've read that math/science/engineering is easier to find graduate funding, but now itstoomuch says competition for this is very stiff. Sure is confusing!</p>