Son at Harvard, now his sis needs a school - Southern schools question

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’ve had geography disputes on CC before about where certain regions begin and end, but does anybody really consider Johns Hopkins as a southern school? Baltimore may be below the Mason Dixon line, but I always considered somewhere around Richmond or just north of there as the northernmost part of the region that anyone would consider southern. And my impression is that the student body and the environment of JHU is pretty far from the traditional conception of “southern.” </p>

<p>In rereading the opening post, I see a request for a school that’s not as intense as Harvard, but still strong academically and where the students also have a lot of fun as well. Maybe the request for “laid back” came in somewhere else. But for southern schools best known for their great academics and great fun for the students, the leading candidates are probably </p>

<p>Best social: Duke, Vanderbilt, U Virginia and U North Carolina (CH)
Very social: Rice (unless you consider that southwestern and/or perhaps too far away) and Wake Forest
Social, but a different flavor from these others: Emory, William & Mary, U Miami
Best social, but in a smaller package: W&L
Very social, but in a smaller package: Davidson
Best social, but not quite as strong in student profiles: U Florida, Tulane, U Georgia
Very social, but not quite as strong in student profiles: Rhodes, Furman, U Richmond, others</p>

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<p>technically, Bawlamer is below the Mason-Dixon line, but I don’t know of any southerners that consider it a southern state. Heck, the Marylanders I know don’t either. :)</p>

<p>Long way away, but Stanford is laid-back, and comes with grade inflation.</p>

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<p>I agree bluebayou and please it is “Bawlmer, Hon” the “Hon” being very important. And I am smiling. I have lived here most of my life and no one I know considers us “Southern.” Like someone above said, the “South” starts around Richmond. When asked, many of us say we live in the Mid Atlantic area.</p>

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<p>mea culpa, cmbmom. I’ll get it right next time. :)</p>

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<p>Heck, most of us Yankees don’t even realize that Maryland is below the Mason-Dixon line. Of course, Maryland didn’t join the Confederacy, so I suppose that by any real definition, it’s not “South”.</p>

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<p>No. At least, (real) Southerners don’t. ;)</p>

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<p>I grew up in MD, and I agree it’s mostly not really the South. (Parts of the Eastern Shore probably do qualify as the South.) For me, the only real reminder of it’s being somewhat Southern is the song “Maryland, My Maryland.” <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland,_My_Maryland[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland,_My_Maryland&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;
I hadn’t given the lyrics much thought when we had to sing them in elementary school, but references to Lincoln being a “despot” are certainly a reminder that the state was not unified in support of the Union during the Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression.</p>

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<p>Re Eastern Shore - the first time I met a classmate born & bred on the Eastern Shore, I could have sworn he was from Texas! He and his friends had such a strong, heavy drawl that it was hard to believe they came from Maryland!</p>

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<p>Heck, Delaware is below the Mason-Dixon line. (What Mason and Dixon did was to perform a survey to mark the boundaries between the royal grants to William Penn, the Duke of York, and the Duke of Baltimore.) Western Maryland (e.g., Hagerstown) feels pretty southern, too. It’s just Baltimore and the D.C. beltway that doesn’t.</p>

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<p>It is very hard to compare schools. It is even harder to compare southern schools to northern schools. But, this may help the northerner understand the southern schools.</p>

<p>SOUTHERN SCHOOL/Northern Comparable </p>

<p>Rice U. / Carnegie Mellon (Crosses arts with tech sciences)
Washington and Lee/Amherst or Claremont McKenna (more Lee than Washington)
Wake Forest/Bowdoin but bigger and more Christian
Davidson/ Williams (but Class I sports)
Duke/Harvard /(But drink less beer more hard liquor)
Georgiia Tech /Rennselaer (One is state, other is not)
William and Mary/small Berkeley(Who can claim two greater state schools than Virginia – California?)
Emory/USC (More like Richmond?)
Vanderbilt/Stanford of the south(Not as Academic, yet)
UNC/ UCLA (Great everything but big)
Richmond/ (More like Emory?)
U Va/ (Biggest prep shool but great at it)
U Miami/ BC (But usually has better football team., more diversity)
Rhodes/ Grinnell (Like midwest LAC but dressier)
Sewanee/ Cornell College (Same as Rhodes)
Virginia Tech/Rennselaer II (Easy admit because of unfortunate event)
Tulane/Small Vanderbilt (Hard to compare to anyone)
Furman/Colby (Not as academic, but similar style)</p>

<p>Many are underrated ot the northern eye. Davidson, Rice, Wake, Vanderbilt and Emory openly place large masses of students to grad and professional schools. Duke is relatively known for this as are UNC, U Va and other large schools. Washington and Lee is major writing institution, and others have their respective boasting points.</p>

<p>Look out for Vanderbilt as it, University of Miami, Rhodes and Sewanee emerge from relative obscurity to highly sought after national schools. Techies at Ga Tech are already applauded and Va. Tech may be the computer school of the south, after Rice. None of these are easy schools – they make you work. Unfortunately, few are easy to get into any more.</p>

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<p>Re Mason and Dixon: Pynchon’s book is incredible.</p>

<p>Re Maryland not succeeding? It may well have had Lincoln not suspended habeas corpus and put its governor under arrest. Interesting story.</p>

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<p>Heck, the part of NJ I am trying to move to is below the Mason/Dixon line, and to my admittedly un-educated Northern ear, the folks down that end of the state actually do have Southern accents.</p>

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<p>FatheroftheBoarder,
Interesting game….and it’s harder than I thought to make these comparisons…For chuckles, I gave it a try and came up with the following for some of the colleges that you mentioned. But in several instances, I am not at all happy with the comparisons as institutions on both sides of these South…..North analogies get mislabeled. What do you think??</p>

<p>Duke…..Princeton
Rice…..Yale
Emory…..U Penn
Vanderbilt…..Dartmouth
U Virginia…Cornell
UNC…..Boston College
Wake…..Colgate
W&M…..Tufts
Ga Tech…..Rensselaer
Tulane…..Lehigh</p>

<p>Davidson…..Williams
W&L…..Bowdoin/Colby</p>

<p>The comparisons that ring least true for me would be Vanderbilt-Dartmouth and UNC-BC. I love all four colleges and think they are all excellent places for students and there are some similarities in the environments and the types of students they attract, but overall I think the comparisons are pretty forced. Hard to come up with a northern match for either Vandy or UNC. </p>

<p>I also don’t really like the Duke-Princeton comparison and more on Princeton’s side than Duke’s as I think Duke can offer nearly everything that Princeton can, but the Princeton of today can’t begin to meet Duke’s athletic scene. </p>

<p>Anyway, please don’t take any of these comparisons & musings too exactly as I am not trying to convey literal matches.</p>

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<p>I could argue Penn State as a northern match for UNC. Maybe Michigan or Wisconsin.</p>

<p>Duke and Princeton have lots of similar appeal, and I’ll be there is a large overlap in their applications. That’s an obvious one. Rice-Yale is a little strained. Yes, because of the residential colleges and nice feel. But otherwise, not quite.
Tulane and Lehigh??? Fact #1 about Tulane is that it’s in The Big Easy. Bourbon Street. Mardi Gras. Lehigh is . . . somewhere around Bethlehem PA. Plus, I think even up north Tulane is a better name.</p>

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<p>jhs,
I could see UNC as a match for Michigan or Wisconsin or even Penn State, but UNC is soooooo much smaller and unlike Michigan and Wisconsin, very dominated by its in-state students. I actually like the Rice-Yale comparison as I think Rice is a pretty special place that has a lot in common with Yale. You got me on the Big Easy and Bethlehem-no comparison there, but I think both Lehigh and Tulane are very good, if underrated schools academically, and with students who like to and know how to have a good time. I wonder if they ever get any cross applications??</p>

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<p>Everyone’s analogy of Northern/Southern school is excellently thought out and valid. I only hope that 1 down 1 to go can gain from these comparisons.</p>

<p>To any northerner, I would say Wake, Vandy, Tulane, and UNC are so unique, that you have to visit the campus to understand their respective characters.</p>

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<p>Deep South Mom of a Dartmouth student here. My D has been very comfortable at Dartmouth, and would say it has some characteristics of a Southern school. </p>

<p>For the analogies of Southern schools - I think Duke is not as intense as Harvard, I don’t know too much about Princeton, I think it is actually more Dartmouth like, maybe a little more pre-prof, but not much, the Southern kids I know at Duke would not fit as well at Harvard. Dartmouth and Duke are both “duck paddling” places - the ducks are gliding along, looking smooth, serene and laidback, but all the while under the water the feet are paddling furiously. These kids are intense about their futures, they just want to have conventional fun.
The absolute most Southern thing about Duke now is the basketball and tenting, Dart gets pretty excited about hockey, but no sport at any Ivy is taken as seriously as basketball at Duke or football at an SEC school. That’s one of the wonderful things about Vanderbilt - you get the SEC excitement without the loss of proportion the rest of the year. I’ve heard UGA and UF are beginning to have enclves like that - the schools have just gotten so big and so much more selective that football soesn’t dominate 365 days of the year.</p>

<p>The one real culture shock thing about Southern universities that should be investigated carefully, especially for a girl, is Greek life. I’m actually a proponent of Greek life, I think it has its place, but it can be very intense in the South, with its own minefield of rules, especially sororities. This isn’t a dealbreaker, your D just needs to ask a lot of questions, particularly at schools that pass the initial screening and are serious contenders. this is the kind of topic she can explore best with other kids - but you need to monitor the results and ask questions.</p>

<p>For example, at Univ of Alabama, rush for freshmen occurs before school starts, either before or overlapping with freshman orientation. That’s very different from a school like Dartmouth where only sophs and upperclassmen can rush. On the positive side, the larger the Greek scene is, the more choices a student will have - there will be orgs with all sorts of personalities, all kinds of kids, so that the average person can always find a group they feel comfortable in.</p>

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<p>Although one can quibble with specific comparisons of schools - is this school comparable to that school or that school - the overall point is well made: that the top colleges and universities in the South compare favorably to those in the NE. Does this mean that Duke/UNC/Vandy are just like HYP? Of course not. But I do think that in terms of overall undergraduate education, the gap between the two groups is not as great as some think - or would like to think. The elite southern schools will be academically challenging, demand their students work hard, provide many opportunities for research, and have an impressive list of faculty and resources. Maybe it’s the climate, or the culture, or whatever, but I think there is also a higher sense of fun on many of these southern campuses. Lots of schools have been mentioned, and several posters have noted the importance of visiting. The schools are all different because “The South” is itself all different. Northern Kentucky, east Texas, south Louisiana, Atlanta, southern Florida, and east Tennessee may all be geographically in the South, but there are distinct differences between the regions, and the schools reflect that. One of the things I think many Northerners who haven’t spend much time in the South sometimes fail to realize is how dynamic, cosmopolitan, and diverse such cities as Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta - just to name a few - are. Are they just like NYC/Boston? No, but each has experienced a tremendous growth in population over the past few decades, in large part by an influx of college-educated, professionals coming from all parts of the country. These parents are now frequently sending their kids - smart, well-prepared, well-traveled - to southern schools. </p>

<p>Now, if we’re talking about having fun - people have mentioned U of Georgia and U of Florida. I think you’d have to work hard NOT to have a good time at either of these places. :)</p>

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<p>Differences: warmer climate; because of this most southern schools will have beautifully landscaped campuses; fraternities/sororities will have a stronger presence; big-time athletics will be more important. Student diversity? At Duke 85% of the students are from outside NC; at UMass 80% of the students are from Massachusetts. At Vandy 4% of the students are from NE; at UMass, less than 1% of the students are from the South. </p>

<p>As long as a student doesn’t come with the attitude that they are entering the Land of Yahoos, and frequently and loudly ask “How could anyone actually live here”, they will be just fine. They may meet people who are registered Republicans, attend church every Sunday, and actually like country music, but at most of the top southern schools there will be lots and lots of students who share their views on political, social, and cultural issues. And anyway, if we all thought exactly the same, the world would be a truly dreary place. UNC-CH may not be to everyone from NE’s liking, but then UMass probably isn’t either. If your daughter is someone who makes friends, likes to experience life and have fun, enjoys meeting people, and is open to differing views, I think she would be accepted at any of the schools mentioned. A kid from NYC is going to be different from a kid from rural Alabama, but then they would probably also be different than a kid from rural Maine. Suburban NE kids aren’t probably a whole lot different from suburban southern kids - in fact a good many suburban southern kids (or their parents) are probably from NE in the first place, or Chicago, or California.</p>

<p>To the OP, IMO Virginia and North Carolina have the largest number and widest variety of top-ranked schools of any southern state. They are also, conveniently, the closest southern states to NE. It is here I would suggest you begin to look.</p>

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<p>S’s very LI Jewish friend is blissfully happy at Chapel Hill.</p>

<p>Hey, I live on LI and I like country music!</p>

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<p>Not necessarily even the same person. :).</p>

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<p>That has definitely been my D’s experience going from the deep, deep South to the NE, the upper middle class suburban kids have more commonalities than differences. The people she has met from large cities tend to have come from more diverse high schools, but the more suburban or rural kids are little different. Also her little high school was more diverse than some in the NE might think. There were about 135 students in her graduating class, her friends included kids from Jewish and Buddhist backgrounds, people from Nigeria and Germany. Her circle of best friends in middle school included one girl who was Jewish, one German, one Korean, a Japanese girl who spoke no English when she arrived and 3 girls who had never been further away than Atlanta.</p>

<p>You just have to visit some schools.</p>