<p>My d will not have the option to take Calculus in hs - not a good thing, since she plans to major in engineering or physics. She does plan to take it in community college the summer prior to college and then repeat it at the university. </p>
<p>Her hs pre-tests and tracks student starting in ninth grade and some of the students will be on a Calculus track. Really don't like how the tracking is done - as it really depends on the strength of your middle school math program; however, nothing can be done now.</p>
<p>On the flip side oldest d took AP Calculus AB in hs and hated every minute of it. She scored a 5 on the AP exam, yet when she (and she wasn't the only one and at different universities) when to college it was suggested that AP Calculus be repeated as the college felt that even a 5 on the exam did not truly prepare the student for engineering calc. D did retake it and it was hard - she wouldn't have made an A without the previous background. Still, she is majoring in Gov and Politics and wishes that she had taken AP Statistics in hs. She has absolutely no need for Calculus and truly despised the class. To say that she would not take Calculus in hs if she could go back again understates the matter, and she would tell you that it wouldn't matter to her whether or not it affected her college choices. :) </p>
<p>Note about rigor of curriculum: at the different hs my s and d attended, rigor was not determined by which honors/AP classes taken but how many. In other words someone could take the most rigorous curriculum without taking the most rigor math courses. Perhaps the student was an English/languages student or government/languages kind of kid - the school did not allow the student to take more than three honors/AP per year and the student needed to choose those classes according to interests and strengths. Honors/APs were challenging and time consuming and the decisions were not to be taken lightly.</p>
<p>"... English major, never took any math again, never used calc ...."</p>
<p>If you KNEW you were never going to use Calc again, why did you take it? Oh that's right, your school system was trying to get you a sufficiently broad education that you could make informed decisions about whether a particular a particular subject applies. Now if you could assure the OP that her S would never need Calc ....</p>
<p>D1 took AP stats instead of Calc and D2 is planning to do the same. D1 is a business major and the stats class<br>
was a great beginning and as a current college junior she will not need to take calc in college. D2 is leaning towards business or biology as a major/minor. Her GC said either of the math classes would qualify as "most rigorous curriculum". It all depends on what area of study the student plans to do. Not having calc did not keep D1 from getting accepted at any of the schools she applied to.</p>
<p>I too am a rising senior who isn't taking a math course my senior year. I've fulfilled the requirement of 4 years of math at a high school level. And it took me about a month to figure out if I wanted a (tough) course load that I was genuinely interested in the courses and the fields of study, or if I would have some interest in some courses and dread another (AP Calc/Stat). </p>
<p>I know I am not going to do anything that has to do with math. As a result, I decided that the course load where I am genuinely interested in the courses and fields of study was the best route for me to go. To me, doing something (and definitely not excelling at it) just to please colleges wasn't worth it.</p>
<p>It's senior year! I am as huge a supporter of taking advanced math classes as they come, but this is a kid who doesn't love math!</p>
<p>There are other courses to take that demonstrate "taking the most challenging courses available." I was actually trying to talk my son out of the killer course load he selected, to have a couple more "fun" electives.</p>
<p>I had very mathy kids. They all took the highest math classes offered. But if I had had a kid who loved art and literature more, I would not have force that child to take calculus in high school.</p>
<p>Full disclosure: my high school was tiny, and the highest math class offered was algebra 2. I went on to major in math, take all my trig and calculus in college, etc. It worked out fine.</p>
<p>Newhope--I took it because I was in the accelerated program, didn't hate it, was good at it, and it didn't conflict with something else. Why not, then?</p>
<p>The OP's kid does not like math, and it does conflict with something else he wants to take. that's quite different.</p>
<p>At the HS I went to, and the one my kids went to, only the top, accelerated kids take Calc. The great majority do not. I sometimes think that a lot of CC parents/kids live in a bubble world where they think taking Calc in HS is the norm. It is not.</p>
<p>And again, what I was questioning is *why *a student *must *take Calc in college if they don't take it in HS. And you didn't answer that.</p>
<p>Unless your son is looking at the most selective schools, it will not matter that he did not take AP Calc. In my experiences, places only like HYPS really care if you take the absolute toughest courses offered and try to have APs in math, science, history/social science, english, and foreign language.</p>
<p>However, if he ends up liking economics, he'll need calculus in college to take upper level courses in the subject. As someone who just finished his first year of college, I can say that most of my friends found calculus to be their toughest class. Many were repeating calculus classes they already took in high school because they did not get a 5 on the AP exam. It would probably help your son a lot to take the class in high school (especially if it is taught well) if it looks like he might need to take calculus in college.</p>
<p>Back in the dark ages I had to take a remedial calculus course the summer before I enrolled in a top 5 MBA program. It wasn't horrible- the class was filled with all sorts of interesting people (grad and undergrad) who had made the decision to skip calc either out of a hatred of all things mathematical, or hadn't known back in HS that they'd need it for whatever degree they wanted. I learned a lot- the instructor was fantastic- and since most of us needed to get an A or B to fulfill the pre-requisite, the pace was tough but not grueling so that we could master the material before moving on. I got an A which was the first time since about third grade that I could have been considered a solid math student. Thank you, college calculus.</p>
<p>BUT- it was extremely expensive even back in the day when a single course in college cost less than it does now. It felt a little wasteful to be spending so much money on something I should have taken when I was 17 when it would have been free- but I just took out a bigger loan to cover the course since although I had been accepted to the grad program, I could not matriculate until I completed calc. </p>
<p>I don't think your D's admissions results will change much with Calc or not Calc. However, she will need it if she plans on taking any Econ beyond Intro; there are many grad programs which require it, and if she takes it in HS it's free, not the price of a college course.</p>
<p>I was stubborn and short-sighted back in HS, plus girls who were not strong in math were tracked into soft subjects as a matter of course. My years in High School Home Ec will pay off some day if I ever decide to make a pie crust from scratch, but Calc would have been a better investment.</p>
<p>Does his school offer AP Statistics? It's a good option for kids that don't want to take calculus or don't see calculus as a college requirement for their intended major. My S chose AP Statistics his senior year instead of AP Calculus. By doing so, he still had a 4 years sequence of math. It didn't effect his college acceptances at all. He was accepted to every college that he applied to. It also didn't adversely effect his performance in AP Physics. If your son is not going to be an engineering student or a science student in college, don't bother with calculus. However, if he does plan on studying engineering or science or math in college, he should take calculus because he'll need the background in it to place him on an equal playing field when he gets there.</p>
<p>garland - I misunderstood. I thought you were advocating "he may not need it in college so why take it in HS?" Sorry. This is a sensitive topic with me because I've seen too many managers decline to act due to "absence of certainty." Among other things, calculus teaches that you can get a concrete answer to questions that appear to lack such, like the area under an asymtotic curve -- and limits of course. In human terms, I see the same thing in medicine: "You say smoking is bad, but I had a cousin who smoked two packs of Pall Mall's a day and he lived 'til 83." I'd like to respond "Well you can't extrapolate from a data sample of one" but that would be wasted breath. Again, sorry for misunderstanding your position.</p>
<p>to the OP: it's all fine and well to take the advice of all on CC for this question, but when it comes down to it, we all come from different HS environments and are going to all different places...that being said, the Q you have can only be answered after the following preliminary Q are discussed within your own house:</p>
<p>1) What is your child's college list look like? (obviously if it's reach heavy and all the other applicants are math award winners, not having AP CALC MAY and i repeat MAY have an affect; not guaranteed though...if there are top state U's and other top schools, but not top 20, probably does not make a difference)</p>
<p>2) What kind of HS do you come from? Does everyone take some type of Calc before graduating or is it a school (like ours) that only the tippy-top kids take Calc? And will the colleges even know that? In our case, the profile did not reflect this.....</p>
<p>3) Right after you look at your own HS, what does your immediate geographic area look like? Around here, kids are EXPECTED to take AP Calc by the time they graduate if they are applying to top 20 schools.....</p>
<p>4) Is there an option for regular or honors Calculus? Would that be a viable option along with the other courses he wanted to take?</p>
<p>I cannot emphasize enough, though, figuring out about your own HS.....Look at other students from previous years and what their results were if they did not continue the math sequence....In our HS, for highly ranked students, there have been staggering results of that decision...but that doesn't mean it would mean as much from another high school in another part of the country....</p>
<p>Blossom, I had the opposite experience. I had taken a year of calculus as an undergrad, but then needed statistics before officially matriculating into my MBA program.</p>
<p>It's impossible to know if a a kid who isn't leaning towards a mathy/techy degree will ever need calculus. As a practical matter -- I'm talking about being able to understand layman level economics articles and books on public policy and such, not for particular career pursuits -- knowing the theory behind standard deviations is helpful. But I've never used calculus in any other capacity. I believe good, solid history background is more valuable for being an informed citizen.</p>
<p>If it's not too distasteful for the OP's kid, I think h.s. is a good time to get calculus "out of the way." My D is only taking it so she has the background needed for AP Physics. She's good at math, but doesn't like it at ALL & is definitely one of those "get it out of the way" kids.</p>
<p>ADad, Why do you have to learn calculus? I never took it, and can do higher everyday math in my head better than my peers. I have missed nothing in terms of needing it on a daily basis. Didn't take math in college, either. Fulfilled math/science requirements doing science only. Interestingly, I have a doctorate, so it didn't hurt me, and my love was in the liberal arts fields. I say let the kid do what he wants. If he hates math so much, what do you think senioritis will do to his grades? The lack of calculus won't do as much harm as a low grade. Isn't this what everyone on this site always keeps saying? It's fit that matters, not prestige, etc. The right college for this young man will take him without calculus, because that's who he is, and he is a fit for it. Manipulating just creates a bad situation for the kid. Let him have a decent senior year, not one he looks upon with regret.</p>
<p>My older daughter attended a rigorous private prep day school. She liked science- but didn't like math. ( wanted to go to design school)
Junior year took precalc, didn't want to take calc senior year. She took one semester of statistics instead.
Applied to 4 schools, was accepted to all.
Took a year off- volunteered full time.
applied to Reed college, was admitted, but on visit day- she said she was going to be a humanities major so she didn't have to sit in on the math class.
:eek:!
She did retake precalc over the summer before she attended at a community college, since it had been a while after high school.
Calculus was the " lowest level" math class her college offered.
As a bio major, she took calc & organic chemistry & statistics.
Didn't love calc, but she learned what she needed to.</p>
<p>I think it depends on the instructor. While her sister in public school did have one or two very good math instructors, even one who was head of the dept & when she was assigned a teacher who wasn't helpful- this other teacher would meet with her for tutoring.</p>
<p>But for some reason, in general, math teachers have difficulty communicating the material to people who aren't math geeks.
If that is the case in his high school, let him take something else that is more appealing. </p>
<p>If he has enough time, he might think about being a TA in a math class, helping others will at least keep him exposed to the concepts and explaining things is a great way, to deeper understanding.</p>
<p>"Why do you have to learn calculus? I never took it ..."</p>
<p>Well I guess you're right. There's certainly no defensible reason for the average citizen to take psychology, philosophy, biology, physics, statistics, chemistry, typing or home economics. After all most students who don't go on to college never take these subjects. And once in college, if one doesn't "like" a subject one can always find a reason not to take it. </p>
<p>I propose we have all college grads take a survey. On the survey will be every course offered in college. If any one responder did not take a particular course, that course shall be deemed "unnecessary" and dropped from every college's requirements. After all, we've done pretty well these last eight years with a President who believes science can't be trusted and 'potato' ends with an 'e.' </p>
<p>(Please pardon the sarcasm. It's been a long day already and it's only noon here.)</p>
<p>Newhope--again, that's not what anyone's saying. No one is saying, not in any way, that it's a useless course. Of course it isn't.</p>
<p>What has been asked, is why you and others consider it a necessary course? Even at my S's very strict Core Curriculum university, Calculus was not a requirement (though I think it would be tough to get in without it, they do not assume everyone must take it.)</p>
<p>The question has never been, why should *anyone *take it? It has been, because several posters including you have asserted this: why should *everyone *take it?</p>
<p>I don't think the question warrants sarcasm, frankly.</p>
<p>Actually, I think there IS a defensible argument for the average citizen to have a background in biology, physics, chemistry, history, typing, etc. The kid in question is choosing between calculus and economics/statistics. All are valuable, but he only can fit in one or the other. I'm a big believer in core curriculum requirements, but I know that personally, I have reached age 49 with a very limited need for calculus. Yet I would have encouraged the kid to take it if it is not something he truly dreads. I don't think posters are being Philistines to vote for stats/economics over calc!</p>
<p>I'm all for the OP's son taking what he wants, provided he understands he MAY need calculus someday.</p>
<p>My kids know I expect them to take 4 years of hs math, including calculus, 4 yrs of science, English, and social studies, and a language through level 4, because I feel personally it is important. But I wouldn't force my views on other families.</p>
<p>I think it depends entirely on whether your son wants to apply to the most selective colleges. My D did not take math her senior year (she finished with Trig/Pre-Cal). She also did not take science. She also took a light schedule her senior year. She's a humanities/arts kid, but she didn't apply to selective colleges either. She was accepted to all of the colleges she applied to. </p>
<p>It all depends on which options your S wants to keep open for college and how serious he is about those options.</p>