<p>I'd let him make his own choice here. He's not asking for anything unreasonable, and presumably a year from now you'll be okay with giving him a lot more freedom than he has asked for now.</p>
<p>The issue really doesn't seem to me to be one about the utility of calculus; it's aboug letting him make choices about his education, and it certainly seems to me as if he's old enough, mature enough, and educated enough to choose between these two classes for the coming year. Is he going to make the best choice possible? I don't know. But I suspect that the best choice for his parents to make is to bet on their son.</p>
<p>to the op: at the very least, check his target colleges and/or target majors for their math requirements. some would explicitly say that calculus is required/recommended. i hope you can convince him to take calculus, but that's just me. good luck.</p>
<p>One of my oldest daughter's best friends was admitted to Columbia with no math beyond a UC Berkeley Extension online pre-calc course. She's since transferred to Harvard. And, yes, I understand that you can't extrapolate from a data sample of one - but there are eight million stories in the Naked City, and this has been one of them.</p>
<p>My rising HS junior also dislikes math, and while the teacher for her Honors Precalc- Calc A class last year was a great guy who clearly loved his subject, his teaching style didn't mesh with her learning style. Since she needs three years of math to graduate and the same instructor teaches the AP Calc class, she decided to take a calculus course online this summer from UC Berkeley Extension. It's a lot of work and she hates every minute of it, but getting the bulk of the work for the class done during the summer will free time for her other demanding junior year classes and activities. If your son is concerned about a lack of math on his transcript, he might want to consider this route.</p>
<p>I sort of think that Calculus is (for those who are planning on social sciences or English or business majors, etc.) one of those "prove you can play the game" courses more than something you will ever find useful in life. I took calc in college (at U of Mich), got an A, and have (literally) encountered maybe 2 or 3 times over the next 25 years where I needed even a passing understanding of the subject. And it really was "passing", not any in depth knowledge, and would not have made a difference if I didn't know it. I took it because I got the impression somewhere that it was part of a 'well rounded' education, not because it was required for my major. But unlike many of the other subjects mentioned here (biology, economics, history, even accounting and finance), you just don't run into it in everyday life -- I read WSJ, Atlantic, Scientific American, Nature, and many other publications on regular basis, and never need it to understand what I am reading. And work in IT/systems consulting, a pretty "mathy" area sometimes. And it just doesn't come in handy. Ever. It is dead useful for those majoring in engineering or math or science, and probably a few other majors. But if I had it to do again, I wouldn't have spent the credit hours on it. So if your kid likes math and/or plans on one of those majors, go for it. If not, skip it. By the way, AP Statistics is useful to the social sciences or business major, so that might be an option to have math senior year.</p>
<p>It could go either way for OP. I can't imagine that anyone studying humanities/liberal arts would find calculus all that useful. I have never heard of an economics major going into college without ever having been exposed to calculus, though. Calculus, for one thing, can make you view the world from a new perspective. You'll never think of slopes, rates, etc after taking a calculus course. But it's difficult to appreciate anything if you happen to hate it. Taking a calculus course over the summer is a great idea, since your son would be able to focus on his interests during the school year and develop necessary math skills when he doesn't have other classes to worry about.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap...
I hear you... my "6 AP classes senior year" son isn't even that competitive or seeking the ultra selective schools. I don't get it, and really did try to help him find something fun and different. Didn't work.
He's pretty easy-going, and I really hope that he manages to have a fun senior year. The good news is that he has finished his required service hours for our instate 100% tuition scholarship. So other than finishing his Eagle Scout, he won't have a lot hanging over his head. But it was definitely his choice, and I could no more talk him out of it than I could have talked another kid into taking French his senior year (and that WASN'T going to happen!)</p>
Why? I am 54 years old, never studied calculus, and never in my entire life have I run into any circumstances whatsoever where I needed that knowledge or even could conceive of making use of it. </p>
<p>This is not true of other subjects. For example, a statistics class or two would have been very useful. (I wasn't required to take math in college -- I don't remember why not). It would have also been useful for me to have developed fluency in any number of languages. Heck, a basic course in auto mechanics wouldn't have hurt -- I mean, I can think of any number of situations where all sorts of knowledge would have come in handy.... but calculus? I can't see it.</p>
<p>I could imagine pushing a kid towards calculus if you think the kid may yet have any sort of interest in science. I've known a number of people who discovered halfway through college, or even after college, that they wanted to pursue some kind of science career. Having to go back and fill in the gaps in math really slowed them down. Barring that, Statistics is going to be incredibly useful in life as well as work. If I could just make people understand the difference between average and median, and when to use one or the other, the world might be an incrementally better place. </p>
<p>I'm taken aback by comments on this thread which imply that calculus is now just a part of the high school math curriculum. The California dept. of education seems to agree, since they're going to start testing 8th graders on algebra (8th grade algebra implies 12th grade calculus). Outside of pushing towards an elite school or being a student who has a natural talent for math, I can't understand why there would be this kind of push, especially when so many US high school students can't even master algebra. I'm missing something here...</p>
<p>mom2three; sorry about that! You must have responded to the post I deleted ( about my D's New Years toast in her senior year....not happy...). I re-read the op and realized she was not asking if she should "MAKE" her kid do something he didn't want to do. As my D prepares to leave for college, our relationship seems more important than ANYTHING I could have imagined when going through the application process last year.</p>
<p>S1 took Calc. and Stats, S2 took neither. S1's major requires Calc. S2's does not. Both attend state u's. I never took Calc. and have certainly never missed it. </p>
<p>Here's the shocker..DH has a degree in Mech. Eng. Calc. was not offered in his h.s He not even take math as a senior because he had exhausted the school's math offerings with Trig. as a junior. He started from scratch with Calc 1 for engineering in college, went through the whole calc. sequence and did fine. He has worked in the engineering field for 27 years and still says calc. was a waste of his time as far as his career..has never had any need for it. He did learn calc. but has never used it... in engineering no less! I'm not saying no one needs it. I'm sure some must use Calc. daily, just that it's not necessary to be successful. Unless the OP's S has his sights set on a top sch. where Calc. seems to be a requisite, I wouldn't make him take it.
I would let him make the choice and let the chips fall where they may.</p>
<p>I never meant to say that everyone, or every college student, should take calculus. I am sorry that what I posted could be so interpreted.</p>
<p>I did mean to say that the S in question should take calculus. I felt it a shame that someone who earns straight As in math should not take the capstone course. I also am aware of the great value of calculus in certain disciplines, such as economics, and felt it to be a shame that S at age 17 could be limiting his opportunities in those disciplines.</p>
<p>I have been impressed with many of the comments criticizing my point of view. I don't normally take strongly etched positions on threads such as this, and I have been chastened, as well as enlightened, by the results of my lack of self-discipline.</p>
<p>I have also been troubled, though, by those who suggest that there is little point in having taken a course if it doesn't turn out to have much or any practical value in one's later life. It seems to me that this approach proves too much. It may argue against calculus, but it also argues against the entire high school math sequence: Algebra 1 (Have you factored any trinomials lately? Rationalized any denominators?), Geometry (Prove any lines parallel or perpendicular lately? Prove anything lately?), as well as Algebra 2/PreCalc (Apply the Law of Cosines recently? Use any imaginary numbers?).</p>
<p>I therefore ask: what is the purpose of the entire high school math curriculum? Should we just dispense with it all, and end math in 7th or 8th grade, except for those who will commit to taking math in order to to learn and/or practice engineering, some sciences, and related disciplines?</p>
<p>I concur with ADad (and calmom). An A math student might as well finish the sequence, particularly if he is planning on majoring in econ (or business) in college. Taking Calc over a HS year is much easier than compacting it into a college semester (not to mention the heightened competition). Second, I'm not a big fan of AP Econ nor AP Govt if only bcos few HS teachers have the ability/background to delve deeply into the topic. (Think about the difference of taking Econ 1 from a Professor who used to advise the President, or worked at the Fed.) Finally, if he aces AP Calc, he could be done with math for good. Stats IS a wonderful course, and fully useful to all -- but it does not have the depth of reasoning as does Calc.</p>
<p>OTOH, if not applying to highly selective schools, and your S has an overall package that reads well to admissions' officers....</p>
<p>Adad--I did not mean to suggest there is no point to it. I took it myself, did fine, and as a matter of record, never used it again.</p>
<p>My point was only in questioning what had seemed emphatic in your earlier post that there was something specific to Calculus which would make one lacking somehow if they didn't take it. I think there are lots of disciplines which are really rewarding whether we ever "use" them again, but most are not pointed to as a matter-of-fact "have to take" course. Though, as I see in your recent post, that's not what you meant.</p>
<p>I do want to make clear that I prize education for its own sake highly; it's the particular canonization of calculus (as I had perceived it) that I was questioning.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I felt it a shame that someone who earns straight As in math should not take the capstone course
[/quote]
My daughter struggles with even the most basic math. She was enrolled in 2nd year math (geometry) in 9th grade in high school by mistake, even though she did not have algebra in 8th grade, and she had straight A's there, as well as the next year in advanced algebra. She did not have to work particularly hard to get those A's. </p>
<p>Welcome to the world of high school. My d's geometry teacher was totally inept -- he was also verbally abusive to the students, so my d. started regularly cutting class and going to the school library, just to avoid being yelled at. One time my daughter came home with an A+ on a geometry quiz. I asked to see the test and she had 29% right. It was not particularly difficult stuff. I asked, "how can 29% be an A+?" She told me the teacher graded on a curve, and everyone else in the class was doing a lot worse.</p>
<p>There are a lot of routes to A's in high school. I would not assume from the grade that the kid has a particular affinity for math.</p>
<p>OP - I apologize for my part in moving your thread off topic. Though hardly a defense, I frankly did not anticipate how strongly people feel about this college 101 level course.</p>
<p>I'd like to recommend the following explanation, which addresses why St. John's College (Annapolis) includes several branches of mathematics, including Calculus, in its Great Books program:</p>
<p>[exerpt]
"Mathematics is a vital part of education;
that this is true or ought to be is suggested
by the word itself, for it is derived from
a Greek word meaning “to learn.” It is
regrettable, then, that students should
come to dislike mathematics or to think of
themselves as unmathematical.</p>
<p>....</p>
<p>There are two main reasons for studying
mathematics. First, it pervades our
modern world, perhaps even defines it.
Therefore anyone who means to criticize
or reform, to resist or cooperate with
this world, not only must have some familiarity
with the mathematical methods by
which it is managed, but also must have
thought about the assumptions that
underlie their application. It is the task of
the mathematics tutorial and the laboratory
together to help students to think
about what it means to count and measure
things in the universe.
The second main reason for studying
mathematics concerns the mathematics
tutorial more specifically. Since mathematics
has, as its name implies, a particularly
close connection with the human
capacity for learning, its study is especially
useful in helping students to think
about what it means to come to know
something."</p>
<p>Gosh, there's an anti-intellectual bias on this thread which hearkens back to a few ridiculous threads in the past. I am recalling some argument which claimed that a free ride at Quinnipiac is ipso facto better than just need- based aid at Yale since both schools are in Connecticut and only a bumpkin would pay for Yale.</p>
<p>No kid should be forced to take Calculus. The OP's kid may have some wonderful reasons and justifications for NOT taking calculus. Or not taking it now. But a couple of posters contribute from their own history and experiences (my own included) and now the PC police have concluded that Calc is useless since it is, quite literally, without "utility" for most people including engineers?</p>
<p>I am a non math person and I regret not taking calculus in HS. The chance that it would have been useful to me professionally (professor of Physics at MIT; econometrician for the Federal Reserve bank) are very slim- my aptitude for math suggests that even with the most patient teacher and under the best of circumstances, I was not heading that way. Nonetheless, I see value in an analytical discipline that I was forced to take before grad school that in many ways marked the beginning of the scientific enlightement/age of invention. I can appreciate that Newton was a cool smart guy even if my work in corporate HR doesn't require calculus (a smart fourth grader could probably do my job although couldn't get hired by my company.)</p>
<p>Nobody is suggesting that the OP chain her kid to a tree until Calculus appears on the HS schedule. But presumably people post here looking for experience outside their own. As a non-math person I would encourage any kid who qualifies for their HS calc class to take it. AP Government and Econ are fine but don't represent nearly the kind of intellectual rigor in a calculus course. Whether the kid would be better off in an auto repair class is sort of irrelevant.. unless the school offers auto repair (mind did, but as a girl I had to take Home Ec.) </p>
<p>I was a Classics major as an undergrad. A major with less "utility" would be hard to find. I am better at my job for having been a Classics major than I would have been as an HR or business major in college, and even though I couldn't calculate the area under a curve if my life depended on it, I am a better business person for having taken calculus.</p>
<p>YMMV. OP should do whatever works for them- but this anti-intellectual bent is comical.</p>
<p>Since when is calculus the cummulation of high school math? I told my son to wait and take it in college "if he needed it for his major". He chose statistics his senior year instead of calc.</p>
<p>Momofthreeboys, as a person who took both statistics and calculus I would say Calculus is the more challenging of the two (don't know if that's a good or bad thing). And also I would guess high school classes like "pre-calc" are specifically geared towards students who will take Calc, not Stats :). In fact, from my experience High School Statistics doesn't require a lot of previous math course knowledge (maybe that was just my class though).</p>
<p>Blossom--I ordinarily (actually always) look to your posts as, hands down, the voice of reason. Have since I got here.</p>
<p>But I am not seeing this comical anti-intellectualism you decry. Actually, I'd call JHS one of the most intellectual posters on the board, and his critique of the calc cult thread is a good read (and probably won't cause your brain cells to atrophy, either.) ANd I'd like to think that neither I, nor Calmom, nor pretty much anyone else here who question the absolute holiness of calculus qualify for philistine status either. However, just in case I'm wrong, I'll try not to let my knuckles drag too noisily...</p>