<p>…not sure if its just extracurricular…what’s interesting is that essentially most of his waking moments (outside of school requirements) involve doing something musical. He arranged another Music Independent Study with the head of music at his school (a Peabody alum BTW) so essentially he could create a final school “performance” that involves sax, guitar and vocal including recorded tracks (he composes/records) accompanied by live solos – interchangebly sax, guitar… </p>
<p>Yes – we are visiting the schools. Seen Bowdoin, going to Wes today (on the way…), hope to see JHU and Oberlin next long weekend…WHEW!!!</p>
<p>Thanks to all again for great thought provoking conributions…keep 'em coming!!</p>
<p>The point about big fish, small pool vs. small fish big ocean (Bowdoin vs. Oberlin) is insightful…that will prompt some interesting discussions!!!</p>
<p>Lastly, is the quality of Oberlin’s academics really on a par with Bowdoin/Wes/JHU??? Most pubs do not agree – how about grad schools and the job markets???</p>
<p>Bowdoin is NOT a second tier school on this list by any means! It is very strong LAC with a lively multidisciplinary music program that is very liberal and experimental. I can tell you that amongst people in the conservatory community, if they hear that you’ve gone to Bowdoin they WILL have a favorable impression of you. It is a well regarded school. If your son has already visited and really liked the place, go with your heart.</p>
<p>Wesleyan is a great schools. Obviously very top notch academics, and located in Middletown which is one of the nicest parts of Connecticutt. It’s got a great and lively music program - decent in classical, very strong in jazz, very very very strong in electronic music, and very very very strong in world music. (Possibly America’s top world music program!) Best of all - being an LAC, it’s all interdisciplinary. Your son can study everything that interests him.</p>
<p>I don’t know how multi- and inter-disciplinary Oberlin is. It is, after all, a conservatory, so you’d have to be at least ‘majoring’ in a discipline. Also, double majoring between music and academics is strongly discouraged there.</p>
<p>My reccomendation - Wesleyan. But if he really likes Bowdoin, that’s plenty enough of a reason to attend Bowdoin.</p>
<p>"Lastly, is the quality of Oberlin’s academics really on a par with Bowdoin/Wes/JHU??? Most pubs do not agree "</p>
<p>??? The only attempt at quantification of academics I’m aware of is in the US News Peer assessment scores, developed via a survey of academicians. Per my 2007 edition these scores are as follows: Bowdoin 4.3, Wesleyan 4.3, Oberlin 4.2. Scores on the page I’m looking at range from 4.7 to 3.4. </p>
<p>“how about grad schools …”
Oberlin is routinely among the leading schools nationally in % PhD production, so it seemingly does not suffer on that score.</p>
<p>Before my own D1 chose it, over Wellesley in the end, I spoke with someone I knew who was/is a professor there. I asked, simply," do students there get into the grad schools they deserve to get into, based on their individual capability?" His answer was most affirmatively yes, in fact placement into graduate programs was a strength of the school.</p>
<p>My perception was music was all over the school at Oberlin, in various formats, not just in the Con. My own D was a good non-pro type musician, got to pursue lessons there with a con student who she said was the best teacher she ever had. Did not do much beyond that, but this was her own choice. I’m pretty sure there would have been many opportunities for her to be more involved with music, if she wanted to do that.</p>
<p>But for my D it was just a pleasant fringe benefit. Obviously someone for whom the music situation is a fundamentally important issue needs to beat this into the ground, and be sure of exacly what the situation will be there as it pertains to them.</p>
<p>Hmmm, my apologies if I were mistaken! I could have sworn I remembered reading in many places that the studio music instructors there didn’t like their students to double major. But it could’ve been double-performance majoring, and not music+academics.</p>
<p>Stephmin, you sound so authoritative and knowledgeable about the experimental and electronic and world music scenes at Wesleyan and Bowdoin (areas I know nothing about) but I would hate to have to judge your reliability based on your representation of Oberlin (an area I do know something about).</p>
<p>A handful of studio teachers at Oberlin do discourage their students from participating in the dual degree program, but they are a small minority. Still, that is a good conversation to have when interviewing potential teachers there because they also serve as your academic adviser, at least on the Conservatory side. I think the thing that best illustrates the overall institutional support for the dual degree program is that David Stull, the current Dean of the Conservatory, is an alumnus having earned degrees in tuba performance and English lit from Oberlin. If you ever have a chance to speak with him in person, it becomes quite obvious how important he finds this program. Before coming to Oberlin, he was Assistant Dean of the Conservatory at Lawrence, another school that is noted for dual degree possibilities.</p>
<p>It could well be the case that some of the studio music instructors don’t like it. But a decent number of students who matriculate there like it, and actually do it, and seem to be better accomodated to do that at Oberlin than at most other conservatories from what little I’ve read.</p>
<p>Rankings of colleges in publications includes other factors, or an array of factors, however, on a straight academic assessment, say by a committee member on a graduate school admissions committee (a position I held for 20 years) Oberlin students would outrank any on the list in undergrad humanities majors. (JHU in science). Wesleyan would come in next.</p>
<p>It’s important to find out the truth about the relationships between college and conservatory–I started out as a music major and then switched to liberal arts. Instantly, I found I could no longer get into the practice rooms (reserved for music majors) or ensembles (consideration given to music majors) and the amount of time available for practice dwindled to nothing. </p>
<p>About Oberlin: I have several colleagues on faculty there and know many students who have come through the school and the conservatory over the years. (In fact, I was interviewed there for a potential hire, but came to NYC instead). There is definitely a perceived pecking order among musicians between the conservatory and the college, and within each of those entities, a subtle hierarchy based on who you study with. In terms of the double degree, it is a very individual matter. A top conservatory studio teacher will often dissuade a student from undertaking a double major if they feel the student needs to put in a lot of practice hours. Someone who has already achieved the highest level of musicianship and has world class chops can afford to spend a little less time on their instrument without losing any ground. </p>
<p>Reading again about your son, it seems to me that more important perhaps than any of these considerations, is finding the program that will adequately support his jazz interests.</p>
<p>Looks like you’re at Wesleyan today! Enjoy the visits and the road trips and please let us know your findings.</p>
<p>I know you’re on this thread for specifically music, but there are other obvious differences between these choices that I’m sure you’ll be evaluating. Bowdoin is much smaller than the others, IIRC, JHU is much bigger. These facts can have numerous implications, e.g. the size of the social swimming pool, breadth & depth of available courses. At LAC’s the matter of fit with the predominant campus culture can be important socially. And in that regard I would expect that Bowdoin’s student body is a bit different than Oberlin’s & Wesleyan’s.</p>
<p>After the visits, i think it is likely your son will have more affinity with some of these than with others. Music aside.</p>
<p>Oberlin double degree students are not discouraged from doing both unless they are not sufficiently committed to keep it up. The academics are great. Especially in music. If you compared the number of students from LAC’s who go on to graduate school IN MUSIC (either for MM or PhD) you will see that Oberlin is way way up there.<br>
If you look at the music offerings at Bowdoin and JHU and compare them to Oberlin, you will see that there is no comparison. Going to Bowdoin or JHU without Peabody would be pretty much giving up on a challenging musical environment. A friend of mine chose Pomona over Oberlin and as a result ended up basically giving up jazz. Depends on what you want.</p>
<p>Thanks!! Visited Wesleyan today – he (and we for him) REALLY liked it. The problem??? The music facilities were really disappointing (both he and I commented "now we know why there are no pictures of the Center for Arts on the website!!! ) – if they were great, I think it may have been a keeper. Everything else there was super!! Now, he’s taking a new look at Bowdoin because he remembers the stages and halls as being really nice. Still going to visit JHU and Oberlin…</p>
<p>He has GREAT music facilties at Lawrenceville and couldn’t believe how shabby all was at Wes considering the “quality” of the music/arts programs in all of the guides!!</p>
<p>Based on a lot of the info here, I think the JHU and Oberlin visits will be insightful…</p>
<p>…an interesting turn!! As suggested by a couple of you here, S stated that he believes now that Oberlin wouldn’t work because he wouldn’t be good enough to get performing opportunities (ensembles, etc.) vs. more talented and more plentiful Oberlin conservatory kids!! He is now considering a gap year wherein he improves his musical skills and then applies to conservatories and/or a school like Oberlin again and he will be in a better position to perform/compete!!!</p>
<p>Bottom line is he is now expressing a “serious” career in music and thinks a conservatory is th way to go sooner rather than later…</p>
<p>Some dumb questions:</p>
<p>– He feels Oberlin is a “safety” he can reapply and get accepted next year (he realizes and appreciates Oberlin’s creds, but knows the general public doesn’t agree), so he’s going to accept Bowdoin, Wes or JHU (definitely Columbia if accepted off of waitlist) because of general competitiveness and hold a prestigious slot just in case…</p>
<p>– His thinking is to do musical stuff in NYC to better prepare for conservatory auditions, plus figure out the path he really wants – his interests range from Berklee’s rock/pop to Tisch’s recording studio program to traditional jazz (oberlin, etc.)</p>
<p>– the parents option is to go to LAC and immerse himself in music to accomplish the same thing (Bowdoin or Wes to get better access to music professors/instructors) while he figures this out…</p>
<p>– Please someone tell us how important the conservatory would be to a “career” and whether its critical he do it now or AFTER undergrad LAC is fine/OK…</p>
<p>Perilous, I don’t agree that a conservatory is essential to a career in music, but I do think it puts you in a better position to compete for the more prestigious grad schools. Look at the performers your son admires–most did not have a conservatory experience in jazz. That being said, I have a son going to Oberlin Conservatory (who chose it over Columbia) to immerse himself in music, and who is considering a DD there–with a plan to go to grad school in NYC. I also don’t think that Oberlin could EVER be considered a safety, but especially if he plans to try to DD–the audition for the Con is essential. We know two extremely talented musicians who were accepted into the college but not the Con.</p>
<p>Is conservatory essential? Answer is an emphatic “NO,” as long as a student gets the proper instruction and growth wherever he/she attends. When it comes to Jazz, student should attend a school where all the proper training is available, but also one with a vibrant jazz scene, especially off campus. It’s safe to see more jazz is learned in the wee hours of the morning playing with other musicians…</p>
<p>Additionally, many great musicians go to LACs undergrad and then proceed to a conservatory in grad school so the progression is fine. </p>
<p>If Jazz is a strong desire, and you are NJ residents, don’t overlook William Patterson which highly regarded, has faculty from NY so you get the instant NY networking, and the in-state tuition. You may even be able to give them a ring to see if there’s any chance for a fall '09 enrollment! Also, only a train or bus ride to cover the 20 miles to NYC’s jazz scene, an important consideration. Of course, academically, William Patterson can’t hold a candle to any of the schools your son has been accepted to…</p>
<p>Another perspective is to view your son’s education as an investment. If he goes to a LAC, will he just feel like he is marking time, and not spending his educational dollars on what he loves most? As others here will tell you, dedicated musicians may find the LAC option frustrating because they are not able to spend as much time as they want on music. In addition, if he goes to LAC and does find it frustrating, then he will have to try to transfer. At least in the classical genre, getting in to conservatory on transfer is not as easy as getting in as a freshman. So, if your son is really interested in immersing himself in music and getting a BM or BFA, saving your dollars and taking a gap year is definitely an option worth considering. We and DS always considered a gap year a very viable option – fortunately, we did not have to implement – but I think it would have allowed him to buff up his skills and continue to immerse himself in music.</p>
<p>"S stated that he believes now that Oberlin wouldn’t work because he wouldn’t be good enough to get performing opportunities (ensembles, etc.) vs. more talented and more plentiful Oberlin conservatory kids!! "</p>
<p>May be the case, but he’s going to dig deep & get to the bottom of this when he visits, right?</p>
<p>“… knows the general public doesn’t agree”
We clearly occupy very different segments of the general public.
On the other hand, having been admitted previously it makes sense chances would be more than decent for transfer. Though I would think “safety” may be a bit overstated.</p>
<p>Imperial…thanks. I thought that going to LAC, figuring it out (ranging from performance to recording studio arts) and THEN going to conservatory, etc. makes sense because he is so unsure right now. Is it true that a conservatory is much more focused on one path vs. “exploration” – in other words, he focuses on one instrument vs. fooling around with 3+??</p>
<p>The gap year “sounds” good, but I don’t see (yet) what it will accomplish – maybe prepare him for a conservatory audition? What if that fails given the competitiveness of the slots…</p>