Son is torn, please help!!!!

<p>monydad…yes, will find out on Oberlin visit…to clarify, the “safety” angle is for him given his academic credentials, not meant to offend the true recognized quality of Oberlin’s liberal arts program.</p>

<p>As I have slept on this, I think S is truly confused as to what he wants to do; therefore, doesn’t a classic LAC make perfect sense for him to consider his exploration and then figure it out? He can immerse himself in a music major and related extracurriculars, etc. My concern right now is that a conservatory is very focused on a single direction – proficiency in a particular instrument for example. Using Oberlin’s con as an example, he doesn’t know if an instrument is what he wants, or TIMRA. Does he pursue jazz or the Berklee angle? What about Tisch and the Clive Davis recording studios BFA? He doesn’t know!! Can’t this be decided later, either while an undergrad or as a post-grad option when his goals are more focused???</p>

<p>Further, if he gaps and somehow figures it out, what are the real odds of getting in to a conservatory via audition for next year???</p>

<p>Perilous – I agree that the LAC is a better place to be if you are less certain of your focus and want to be able to explore. The key is then to find a school that will allow the exploration in the areas of interest.</p>

<p>an extraneous thought - in jazz it might be different. in classical music, you have got to get your chops young. waiting until grad school is not really an option. some kids are already so advanced at the end of hs that they can afford to practise 1-2 hours a day at an LAC for 4 years and still go back. Others (like mine) really need that 5-6 hours of concentrated playing time in college in order to ever hope to be professional. I think it might be different for jazz, but I’m not sure. If not, doing a non-performance degree at an LAC might cut off any chance of becoming a performer. If you find you’ve made a mistake, you can always transfer from Conserv to an LAC - hard to go in the other direction.</p>

<p>You could accept the LAC he liked best with a request for gap year and try the audition route next year. It is amazing what many hours of well-focused practise will bring you. Your son would never then have to wonder later what might have been…if it doesn’t work, he still will have a great school to go to. Time and space are something you only have when you’re young. Why not use it? </p>

<p>Another thought - I have the impression that if you are accepted at Oberlin Conservatory and you end up wanting a DD, they will help you to make this possible even if you didn’t get a separate College acceptance.</p>

<p>LAC definitely seems like the way to go. Like you, I’m not so sure what he’s going to try to accomplish with a gap year? He’s in a good spot right now, with several options/schools that he likes, that will allow him to explore his interests.</p>

<p>Perilous, it sounds like NYU has dropped of the list of possibilities, but in case it hasn’t you need to make sure that he’s going to the right school for what you want. You’d said he was accepted into the honors program - if that’s in CAS (College of Arts and Sciences) he won’t be able to take any of the serious Tisch or Steinhart courses, just the “dabbler” ones. We found this out the hard way when D1 thought she wanted to test the waters in film and was actually going to have to apply as a transfer to do it. She chose NYU over McGill because she thought she’d have access to the more creative courses, and this turned out not to be true.
Luckily for us, that was a phase, and now she’s happily playing with bones, monkeys, and digging up artifacts. She absolutely loves what she’s doing, loves the school, and is lovin’ life. All’s well that ends well!</p>

<p>Just to put in my 2 cents here…</p>

<p>My father was a music major and played the trumpet. He was reportedly quite amazing and was well on his way to a professional career. Third year he just “lost” his confidence and desire to play/perform. He changed his major, started over and ended up with a PhD in American Studies and became a professor. Played recreationally all his life.</p>

<p>So many kids change their majors and interests in college. I would pick a school with both the BEST music program and that is the BEST fit for his other interests and for him if he should decide to change majors but still want to be interested in the music scene.</p>

<p>“…given his academic credentials…”</p>

<p>assessment is made in hindsight once admission is received. However, rejection would have also been possible. Academic credentials are not the whole story, there is a famous story on CC of andison, you might look it up.</p>

<p>My D received nice acceptances, but also received a couple of rejections from schools for which she seemed at least as well qualified, based on academic credentials. andison also seemed highly qualified via academic credentials, and even extracurriculars. Yet was rejected. Some schools admit smaller % than others, but where % is still not huge uncertainty remains. Until eliminated by a fat letter. IMO.</p>

<p>I’m sorry Perilous, I don’t understand your question?</p>

<p>There are certainly students attending the college who were not admitted to the conservatory. However, there is no assurance that attending the college will assure subsequent admission to the conservatory. In fact my daughter told us of someone on her floor who had been in this precise situation, and was again not admitted to the con, upon re-audition.</p>

<p>So IMO its best to attend the college if you actually want the opportunities that attending the college will offer.</p>

<p>And are there students who do so? Certainly. All of them? Undoubtedly not.</p>

<p>Still scratching my head over the appellation “shabby” regarding Wesleyan’s Center For The Arts:
<a href=“http://www.krjda.com/images/Wesleyan_EDU_4.jpg[/url]”>http://www.krjda.com/images/Wesleyan_EDU_4.jpg&lt;/a&gt;
A little stark, for some tastes, perhaps. But, shabby calls to mind peeling paint and threadbare carpets. In this case, there’s nothing to peel but limestone walls – inside and out: <a href=“http://www.event-source.com/esimages/V_011318_H1.JPG[/url]”>http://www.event-source.com/esimages/V_011318_H1.JPG&lt;/a&gt;.
I agree they should have more of these photos on the music dept. website (if for no other reason than to prepare people for what to expect), but, when I go to the site, my sense is that they are preoccupied with performance schedules and whatnot; after all, the complex is nearly forty years old; it’s not like they’re rolling it out for the first time. :p</p>

<p>I sympathize with your quandary! And with the fact that you have to act fast for a decision. I really don’t know anything about jazz programs or what level of playing is expected in conservatories for jazz musicians. I do know that for classical musicians, to reach the conservatory level requires 10 or more years of practicing anywhere from 3-6 hours/day on the instrument. Sometimes a musician might be a bit behind if they started late on their instrument or had a setback, or didn’t put in the time, and that would be the reason for the gap year. For a classical musician to gain acceptance to Oberlin conservatory, the estimate is 10,000 hours of practice on their instrument.</p>

<p>In addition, most conservatory bound applicants have taken some music theory and music history courses and have participated in ensembles at the state or regional level, winning awards and soloing with regional orchestras. Many have been enrolled in a formal pre-college music program. In the greater Princeton area for example, there is a Young Artists Program at Westminster Conservatory (I’ve known some jazz pianists in that program). Most of the conservatory bound musicians I know in this area have been in that program or go into Philadelphia to Settlement Music School or into New York for Manhattan School of Music Prep, or Juilliard School of Music prep.</p>

<p>This could all be different in jazz, I want to stress that I do not know.</p>

<p>I think you and your son need first hand experience of a conservatory jazz program and the level of playing there. Since he’s in at Oberlin I really encourage you to get out there and take a close look. Your son can assess the conservatory and even if he decides to take a gap year, he will know if he wants to try for Oberlin conservatory in the future. He’ll also find out the lay of the land in terms of doing music in the college vs. conservatory. He might find that if he loves the conservatory, being there is the best way to build towards the conservatory app for the next year.</p>

<p>It is also possible (at some schools) to defer admission for a year while doing a gap year. But I worry about the musical context for your son during that year.</p>

<p>What do your son’s music teachers advise?</p>

<p>Another thought would be to contact teachers at conservatories (like Manhattan School of Music, which I believe has a good jazz program) and ask to come in for an evaluation and recommendation of career path. This is done frequently, and at least in classical music, is the standard course of action in the year before a conservatory application and audition is prepared. If you look on the MSM roster today, you can probably shoot off some emails and hopefully, get in a visit to NYC.</p>

<p>I think it all comes down to the amount of time your son wants to devote to music. Is it 25% of the time or 75%+? If it is the latter, then a conservatory or music school is the way to go, because it is the only way he will get the intensity of the experience that most musicians crave. If he is still interested in either dabbling or practicing/studying less intensely, the BA is the way to go. Frankly, if I had a child who was in the slightest conflicted, I would most likely recommend the BA route.</p>

<p>Whew – lots of great thoughts!! SJTH…my question was of the 2 talented musicians that did not make it to Oberlin Con, did they go to Oberlin LAC or somewhere else?</p>

<p>Sorry for confusion re: gap year; yes, he would “defer” a year – ala the idea of Bowdoin/Wes for that reason…</p>

<p>He does have a connection at Manhattan School of Music – will encourage him to talk that option through…</p>

<p>He’s having a follow-up conversation with his music teachers at school as a result of last night’s conversation…all have candidly told him he is currently not conservatory level but his jazz instructor believes his “ear” and “raw talent” (sax and guitar) that he could get there…</p>

<p>Believe he would love to spend 75%+ on music if he could; my question (and don’t forget Mom!!!) is can’t he get the LAC education while he’s figuring this out and then pursue this conservatory, etc. path later if he wants?? He can better prepare for it, figure out exactly what area to focus, etc. Plus, we as parents would support him…</p>

<p>Is it possible to pursue varied musical interests in a music school/cons, or is it very specific (one instrument, etc.)???</p>

<p>I look at it this way, option 1…go to LAC and focus on music to the extent possible while you are figuring it out, or option 2…defer admission, pursue intense musical training and then apply to a cons/music school. When I evaluate these 2 options, I see little downside to option 1 – he decides which musical path makes sense, then focuses on training for that path and then tries to go for that conservatory/school, either in a year or later once he gets a bachelors…</p>

<p>johnwesley…sorry about the “shabby” comment…but actually the buildings showed lots of rust inside and out (Metal windows, accents and railings) and the practice rooms, etc. were very “old” in feel and many (if not most) were underground…we actually went back twice while there to try to convince ourselves that we must be missing something. The rest of the school was awesome and that was why this was so disappointing to him…especially if he’s going to spend a lot of time there at the music facilities. His current high school music/art facilities (L’ville School in NJ – both the Clark Music Center and Kirby Arts Center) are much nicer…</p>

<p>He was really impressed by the amount of musical classes and offerings, the overall academic freedom to design one’s own curriculum, etc. so we will see…</p>

<p>I have been very interested in the posts on this thread, as they highlight the importance of thinking carefully about what the prospective college student will want to study in college. For prospective college students planning to major in performance, music ed, or some other area of music (e.g. composition), some may have had as broad musical interests/involvement as your son, but in general, there has been a relative commitment to intense study and preparation in a particular area. As one parent mentioned, prospective conservatory students may have put in as many as 10,000 hours of practice on their instrument, as well as participation in youth music ensembles, competitions, summer programs, etc. A student hoping to major in composition will have put together a portfolio of compositions, some of which have been performed, hopefully. Students interested in electronic music programs often have spent a lot of time and study in this area and will have substantial experience with various music software and have a collection of works to submit that shows a mature interest and ability in electronic/experimental music. </p>

<p>But many kids enter strong liberal arts programs without knowing what they will major in, and this generally is not a problem, except in cases in which the area of study is applied or specialized/technical and not offered or is weak at the particular college. I assume that some of those kids transfer to other schools. </p>

<p>Given your description of your son’s musical interests and activities, it seems to me that if he was contemplating taking a gap year with the goal of entering a conservatory, he first would have to make a commitment to one musical instrument to study in an extremely intense way during that year, and to have a teacher with a strong track record of preparing students on that instrument for conservatory auditions. </p>

<p>By the way, at two recent visits to top music schools, one in a flagship state university and the other at a conservatory, we heard at the presentations that jazz guitar was second only to vocal performance in having the largest number of applicants in those places. Of course piano also is ridiculously competitive because of the number of students from all over the world who have been practicing for those 10,000 hours. It would be a mistake to think that jazz piano would be any less competitive since many of those applicants may have been studying classical piano for years before focusing on jazz. I don’t know anything about saxophone, but I would check on this since saxophone seems to be a very popular jazz instrument in high school music departments. Has your son made a decision of what instrument he would want to study intensely if he were to take the gap year?</p>

<p>So if your son was to consider the gap year, he would need to make a commitment to be very narrowly focused in his chosen area for a year, and even then there would be no guarantees. Also, I think it would be important to make sure his heart is really into being so focused on one area or this could be a disappointing experience. </p>

<p>You described your son in a way that indicated that he has very broad musical interests. If that is the case, I think it may be a good idea for him to enroll in the liberal arts school that has the most opportunities for involvement in music. One of the posters here said that Wesleyan had very strong world music, jazz and electronic music, all of which sounded like they might be interesting to your son. If that is true, the fact that some facilities appeared run-down would be a superficial reason to reject that school, in my opinion. Sorry if that sounded rude, but the fact is that there are almost always compromises in making these decisions. If we were in this situation, I would find out if it is possible to meet or talk to current students who are heavily involved with these music activities at Wesleyan, for example, to see how they felt about the facilities and musical opportunities. </p>

<p>One more thing. There are a number of larger state and private universities with superb comprehensive music departments that may have more different specializations, degrees offered and resources than either the LACs or conservatories. So if your son does take a gap year, he may want to look into the many excellent music departments/schools in universities as well as the conservatories.</p>

<p>rigaudon…really insightful comments!!! Coming a little late to the conservatory angle, I found your thoughts to be extremely helpful…your comments on Wesleyan are not rude; you are right, it will be a compromise and it appears the Wes music program is very good. I will share your comments with my S as I think you have hit a lot of salient points.</p>

<p>Right now his strongest point competitively is recorded music – use of tools, creating, composing and recording many electronic pieces…what is interesting is when recently discussing this path with him, he wasn’t sure if that was THE path…</p>

<p>I hope this thread is proving useful to others also – in our case, we are sort of trying to figure this out I suppose later than most that are musically focused. Everyone’s comments are welcomed and greatly appreciated…</p>

<p>Perilous, to answer your question, both musicians who applied for DD but were only admitted to the College (not the con) are attending Oberlin anyway. The musician who was waitlisted at the Con plans to pursue it; the other thinks she’ll just play her instrument “for fun” when she can, and see how she feels about an attempt to re-apply.</p>

<p>"One of the posters here said that Wesleyan had very strong world music, jazz and electronic music, all of which sounded like they might be interesting to your son. "</p>

<p>On the other hand, Oberlin might be yet stronger, even for someone not enrolled in the Conservatory. Which is what the OP will be looking into.</p>

<p>Couple of other points about Wesleyan and its music atmosphere:</p>

<p>It’s true that the stark architecture and design of the Center for the Arts is a bit of an acquired taste, at least for me, but I never found it shabby. On the contrary. And Crowell is a great concert hall, imho.</p>

<p>More important than physical surroundings is the musical community and the passion it engenders. One of many examples is “In the Heights,” the hiphop musical conceived, written and performed by Lin-Manuel Miranda when he was a Wes student, which won the Tony award and on top of that was a Pulitzer finalist today for best drama.</p>

<p>Finally, not many elite schools can boast that their president loves music enough to take a turn at the keyboards whenever he has an excuse: <a href=“http://roth.blogs.wesleyan.edu/files/2009/04/wesfest2009-179.jpg[/url]”>http://roth.blogs.wesleyan.edu/files/2009/04/wesfest2009-179.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;