<p>Yeah - - what he said.</p>
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My observation is that, the farther down the academic foodchain the college is, the more draconian they get with their policies toward students.
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<p>Not even slightly surprising. Schools farther down the foodchain are far less dependent on the goodwill (financially speaking) of parents. Nobody donates a performing arts center if Johnny got expelled.</p>
<p>My S1 had a similiar situation except he was walking down the sidewalk with 5 friends on the way back from the convenience store. One of the friends had beer in his backpack that was bought at the conv. store where the cops saw them and followed them back towards the dorms. The cops stopped them on the sidewalk and then questioned each one indiviadually. This was the first week of sch. freshman year and they were all scared. They all admitted that they planned to drink the beer (but had not at that point) so the cops charged them all with underage possesion. They had to appear before a judge and go to an alcohol education class (run monthly on the campus of their big state u.). to have the citation dismissed in court. </p>
<p>I never knew about any of this until almost a year later when S told us. He handled it on his own. I believe it was wrong for the cops to charge him when he never even had the beer and would have argued that had I known.</p>
<p>I am 100% with Curmudgeon on this. The first response is for the student to handle this, but the second sentence out of mouth would be "What is the school's policy on this?" "What can you expect to happen?" "What are your rights?" - not asking in order to get them out of the consequences, but more to guide them through the process of owning up to the mistake and taking the outcome without being railroaded.</p>
<p>I actually discussed this with D ahead of time - as lame as some of those dorm activities are first year, you don't want to miss the one where they explain the alcohol policy and what your rights and responsibilities are. I find the academic honesty policy a little murky, too, in these days of the internet, and computer programs that check your wording and look for plagarism.</p>
<p>Someone near and dear to me had two encounters with the law late this summer. Both required the hiring of local attorneys- in two different states, neither of them the one in which we live. I could have allowed him to muddle through on his own and accept the consequences, which could have been severe (although both things were in the clear norm of things done by many college students). I chose to find the best lawyer (through contacts of mine) and monitored the progress of the cases, but he had to pay the legal bills and the fines.</p>
<p>I agree with Curmudgeon as well.</p>
<p>I do wonder what happens at the schools with very strict alcohol policies. Do students actually not drink? Do more students get fake IDs to get into bars? Do they drink in private apartments? Do they feel comfortable calling for help if someone is very sick? </p>
<p>At my school many students have alcohol in their rooms. Many students actually have full bars in their dorm rooms with 8-10+ types of alcohol, a shaker, shot glasses, limes, and whatever else. It's certainly not endorsed by the college, but even if housing staff sees alcohol in your room they don't take any disciplinary action (though I think they technically could). The good thing is that all students feel comfortable asking for help if a friend may be in trouble; I have no idea when the last alcohol death on campus was, but I've never heard people mention one. Anyway, I don't want to start a debate on this, but relaxed rules seem to work pretty well on my campus, though they may not everywhere else. If students are going to drink, I'd rather they did it in a situation where they were being watched over and felt comfortable seeking help if necessary.</p>
<p>I disagree with Curm. It would be a very cold day in hell indeed that I'd attempt to interfere with the school's disciplinary process. I might want to hear their side of the story and I'd want to understand the process (I guess) - so that I could talk to my son about it - but when laws (or rules) are broken my kids know, and have always known, they are pretty much on their own. Sad but true.</p>
<p>Private colleges have nearly unlimited rights to punish students as they see fit. Publics may have to yield to more due process and court challenges.</p>
<p>Weenie--but with the lack, often, of due process, how do you know the kid broke any laws? My program student walked into a party for five minutes, and walked out again. She doesn't drink alcohol at all. If she were my kid, thrown out of the dorm for a week on that account, you better believe I'd have something to say--I pay enough for that dorm!</p>
<p>weenie, if my kid was accused of cannibalism, and they had her on video- I'd still try to make sure she had the best representation possible. </p>
<p>Heck. I don't know what I could do differently. It's what I do for a living. And yes. I have been hired to oversee disciplinary proceedings.(Edit: Both H.S. and college)</p>
<p>And weenie, I hope you never have to make that choice but somehow I'm thinking your kid in jail will change all that. But , hey. I could be wrong.</p>
<p>Curm - I do believe that if my son was breaking the law and threatened with prison time he would be eligible for professional legal representation. As you know, we are talking about college disciplinary procedures here. They are a whole different ball game, and NOT likely to result in jail time.</p>
<p>The reason colleges have their own disciplinary procedures is precisely because KIDS are held accountable to their school and to their peers. Yes, there is a certain amount of trust involved in that. I can deal with that.</p>
<p>(cannibalism???!!!)</p>
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As you know, we are talking about college disciplinary procedures here. They are a whole different ball game.
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Not really when a career is threatened by expulsion, or a $13K a semester scholarship is taken away that you needed to attend college. They are quite the same in effect. </p>
<p>And he won't get a court appointed attorney and be a college student without a job. Not around here anyway.</p>
<p>Edit: Yeah. Cannibalism. I tend to make my points rather ..uhh..dramatically. Murder just was so... so blase'.</p>
<p>Curm, We would do the same thing if expulsion were a possible punishment, but it just better not happen. We have warned DS. BTW, his school has a 3 strike policy and so many of his friends have one strike. My son claims that he doesn't have a strike, but I don't really know because the school sends a letter to parents when a student has 2 strikes. Strike one means a class about alcohol, paying the cost for that class, and I am not sure if anything else happens.</p>
<p>I asked my D is she wnated me to do anything, she said, no, she would handle it and she was very rational, she admitted nothing, but did not lie....she took her lumps, was angry, but respectful</p>
<p>It saddened her that the innocent can be punished equally as the guilty....but at her school at least, it takes a few transgressions for there to be a serious consequence, and there is a VERY clear policy, so can't plead ignorance</p>
<p>I guess I have never really heard of an "innocent" kid getting kicked out of a school for the first infraction. There would be some pretty empty campuses around...</p>
<p>what I find amusing is that drinking is almost celebrated at frats and may schools ignore it, so send these really mixed signals</p>
<p>CGM, exactly. I have always felt that way.</p>
<p>My point is simply this: rinky dink college procedures are fine for rinky dink punishments. Classes, slap on the wrist stuff. I'm staying home. Up the punishment till it threatens one's ability to attend law school? The time for rinky dink is over. Make room for Daddy.</p>
<p>^Weenie, but as I said, "innocent" kids at my college might be kicked out of the dorm for the week. For the kind of students I work with (and I know you do too, so you know the threads their college careers hang by) that may be tantamount to expulsion, at this point in the semester--all for walking through a room (by all accounts.)</p>
<p>I agree with Cur 100%. If the policy is reprimand, online awareness class, or something like that- fine, stay out of it. If there is a possibility that you could get kicked out of the dorm, lose scholarship money, get expelled, or have this on your permanent transcript, I'd want to talk to the disciplinary people myself. Personally, if I knew my kid was going to have a black mark on his record that could keep him out of grad school or prevent him from getting a job, I'd remove him from the school myself before the fact. That's a ridiculously draconian punishment. The problem with having "Public Intoxication" on your record is that the person reading it has no idea that you were just minding your own business having a couple brews in your private room, for all he knows, you were out carousing with 2 cartons of eggs and a case of spray paint, hooting at strangers, picking fights, throwing up, or passing out in front of the physics building.</p>
<p>Let me get this right- they weren't driving, they weren't serving/selling it to others, they weren't in public urinating in the bushes or harassing bystanders, they didn't end up in the ER...</p>