son working at school!

Parents Forum
1

<p>My son, a 8th-grader, goes to a nearby high school for his math in early morning, so he starts his day one hour earlier then regular middle schooler, after math class, he goes back to his regular middle school for the rest of day, but each day he will have one period (45min) free (when other classmates goes to their math class), so school assigned him as student aid in the school's library, helping out when needed. </p>

<p>However, before long, the occasional needed help becomes a regular job, my son has been asked to do all kinds of work ( stamping the book, staple the paper, clip the box etc ) basically for full 45 min on daily bases , while the librarian is surfing the web or just sit there chatting. </p>

<p>When I talked to school, asked if at least he can get some community service credit for his work, the school responded we don't give student aid that kind of credit......</p>

<p>I don't feel very right about this issue, I don't think the school has the right to keep him constantly working like that . Especially at the end of the day, when my son felt very tired, many times, he just got to sit down and had his eyes closed to take a break ( he gets up at 6:00am), the librarian would wake him up and give him some work to do....... </p>

<p>I feeling a little abuse here, But before I complain about this to the school, I need to get some advice, what do you people think about this? </p>

<p>I know my post is not related to college, but I need help and I have been visiting this forum for a while , I see so many nice parent help eager to help others, and I couldn't find any other forum as warm as this one, so I am posting my problem here, hope I can get some advice from you. </p>

<p>Thanks for any kind of opinions.</p>

2

<p>I'm a middle school teacher. Years ago, my 8th grade son also took math classes at the nearby high school (before middle school) and had approx. 30 min. of time to kill prior to school starting. He used it to goof around in the computer teacher's lab :)</p>

<p>I also currently allow an 8th grader who is doing the same thing to come to my classroom before her 2nd period middle school class starts. She does her homework or reads. I do not ask her to help out. So I can speak to this as a mom and a teacher. </p>

<p>I think the librarian is under the impression that your son is her assistant (our librarian, for example, has one or two student assistants each period). Since you haven't yet talked to her personally (I assume) she probably believes this period is his elective and that he should be kept busy. Yet, because he's already had a full day of school, I agree that there should be no expectation of him helping out on a daily basis unless he wants to. He should, in fact, be doing his homework so he can go home and rest. I would recommend that you approach the administrator and ask for your son to be transfered to a teacher's classroom where he can do his homework or just put his head down if he wants. He needs to have a study hall time, not be an assistant. If you approach the administration nicely but firmly, I'm sure they will be reasonable. If they are not reasonable -- which would be very odd IMO -- is there any way that you could arrange to pick him up before the last period and just bring him home? He's obviously a bright kid. Good luck!</p>

3

<p>Hi,momof2inca:</p>

<p>Thanks for your response.</p>

<p>I actually did talked nicely to the consolar at his school's guidance office, when I said, I would prefer my son doing his homework at that time, her reply was " he can do homework after he gets home'. when I said he is tired, he needs some rest, she rudely said, 'the kids come to the school to learn, not to rest'. that makes me very angry, and thinking to file a complain. but I haven't talk to the principal yet. </p>

<p>I tried to bring him home earlier several times, and each time the school insists to have a early release note, which is very annoying.</p>

<p>According to my son,most teacher in his school is nice, but not those administrative officers......it's so hard to deal with them.....</p>

4

<p>One day, my son was kind of falling into asleep in the libarary, and the consolar woke him up and told him this is a public place, you should not falling asleep here, though, at that time, every one is in the class, other then the libarian and my son, no one is there.......I don't understand why those peopel don't have any sympathy at all....</p>

<p>I wished the school's personnel were as nice and understanding as you are, I am glad I heard what a teacher would saying in this issue, that's one of the reason I post my concern here, I am just not sure if letting kids working on daily bases is normal or not.....</p>

5

<p>"doing his homework at that time, her reply was " he can do homework after he gets home'. when I said he is tired, he needs some rest, she rudely said, 'the kids come to the school to learn, not to rest'. that makes me very angry, and thinking to file a complain. but I haven't talk to the principal yet. "</p>

<p>Time to talk to the principal. I am sure that the many wise parents here can give you suggestions about how to do this in the most effective way.</p>

6

<p>Your son is being taken advantage of and you are being treated poorly as well.
I have volunteered to work in our school libraries for years (elementary school, middle school, and now the high school). The work your son is doing in the library should either be volunteer work, and acknowledged as such (as you suggested, he could get credit for community service. I really don't understand the problem with that. Doesn't cost the school anything??) OR, it could be service performed in lieu of detention as a punishment, which is clearly not the case. Do they have study halls at the school? Why wouldn't he have a study hall? I don't think he should simply be drafted into servitude.</p>

7

<p>That's his free time. End of story.</p>

8

<p>Thanks to you all for helping me sorting things through. I really appreciate it.</p>

<p>More questions:</p>

<p>is asking a quite corner at school for my son to take a nap a proper request?</p>

<p>What if the principal holds same attitude? where should I go further?</p>

<p>I am a little worried if I insist, the school will give my son more hard time later on? or putting some negtive comments in his file for not willing to help out?</p>

9

<p>Ah, sometimes stories like this from school really bother me. They are so hard to understand the reasoning! </p>

<p>First, when I read your account here, I feel like your son is being penalized for being smart, accelerated, etc. The good news is that his math learning needs are being accomodated by being allowed to take high school courses. The bad news is that he is being made to "work" in the library, not out of choice as something he asked to do during that period but cause someone else gave him this job to do. My feeling is, he has this "free period" cause he takes math at a time out of the norm for his grade and now has a period when the other kids are in math so he needs something else. Therein is the issue. A team of folks....teachers, guidance counselor, principal, you, your son, should be meeting to discuss how he is to be using that period when the rest of his peers are in math. I would NOT ask if he can take a nap. No, I don't think that is the direction to go with this. While the person was right in saying they come to school to learn, not to rest.....I would pick up on the first half of her sentence...they come to school to LEARN. What are HIS learning needs during that time period?? Surely not to be a task master of the librarian! Now, a brainstorm of how he can use that period is what is in order. It is one thing if he wanted a "job" to do assisting in some area of the school.....but I get the impression the library job was not one he asked for. But had he asked for something such as tutoring other kids, that would be appropriate. I think a good use of his time is a study hall as he has put in his 8 periods of a school day, and started earlier, that's all. So, this period would be used for learning. Another idea is if he wanted to do some sort of indep. study project and work on it during that time. Another is to go home from school early. The team needs to focus on this kid's learning needs. </p>

<p>When a child is doing "different" work than other kids, it does not mean he then must get busy work when they are working. The child should not have to do something extra, just something DIFERENT. Your son is doing his math at another time block each day but he should not have to work as a library assistant when the other kids are doing their math. He should have something different to do, but nothing that feels like a "punishment". The library job would have been fine if that was how it was decided was the best way for him to use this block (perhaps an interest in volunteering). But otherwise, this is not the right thing for him. He should be engaged in something.....an alternate project, homework, tutoring, ...but that "something" should be for a well thought out reason and not as some "punishment" for being smart and taking advanced classes. That would be my focus in asking for a conference. I would not ask about nap taking though. </p>

<p>I think if a parent asks for a conference, through the proper channels, then it should be granted. And when you DO meet, bring up how best to meet your son's needs during this extra block he has. Rather than be confrontational...bring it up like.....you want to work WITH them to find the best possible solution for your son for an alternate activity when the others take math. Have his best interests in mind. That is the goal. Also impress upon them that he is unhappy doing library work and it is not as if that is required of all kids and he feels "punished" cause he takes math at a different time.</p>

<p>By the way, my own kids took high school courses and indep. studies during middle school and it was not always easy to figure out these accommodations but we did advocate and met with teams at school to find solutions. You need to give this a try. Again, focus on her statement that kids are there to LEARN.....and he is not learning anything by the library job (other than betterment for his school) that he did not opt to do as a project and would prefer to do another sort of learning....be it homework, indep. study, another type of "service" he enjoys (can he propose a different way to "help out"?) ", etc. I still believe study hall is a viable and fair option in this case. </p>

<p>Good luck
My feedback is from a parent who had kids do this sort of thing out of the "norm"....as well as a person who has been a teacher.</p>

10

<p>My opinion:
No, it isn't appropriate for the school to provide a place to sleep.</p>

<p>I believe there is a legal issue about making a student work, though. I remember a few years back when the issue came up with have special education students perform jobs in the school as "training" and it was contested as "slave labor." Don't remember the details or outcome.</p>

<p>I think the student should be allowed to leave or have study hall, and I would make the case that, because he has already had math elsewhere, he has completed his required 6 periods a day or whatever. I wanted my S to leave early, because he didn't need an extra class, and wasn't allowed to, but they created an independent study class for him, where he was allowed to pursue his own interest.</p>

<p>If I were in your shoes, if the principal didn't cooperate, I would politely ask him or her where I should go to appeal, and let her know I wasn't going to let up. The points I would make:
1. Student isn't there to sleep; but neither is he there to work an unpaid job unrelated to his education.
2. He has already had a full day of classes. If they won't count his off-campus math, then, legally, they should be required to provide a math class on campus for his "free, appropriate education."
3. If he can't leave, due to transportation not being availiable, then he should be provided a place to do his homework, as he is already finished with his school day, and therefore it IS after school for him.</p>

<p>He is in middle school. The administrators' opinions of the issue should not affect college or anything else. They only look at high school issues.</p>

11

<p>You've said that you picked him up a few times? If this "free time" is always at the end of the day, and you are in a situation where it is not a problem to pick him up early, is it possible to just give the office a note for "everyday" or for "the following dates:" (if it is not everyday, but a viable option)?</p>

<p>I think you should avoid asking for a place for him to take a nap, as it would seem to me that the school would frown on the idea of letting a kid have a place to nap while other kids are "busy working hard."</p>

<p>I think that you should ask if he can have a quiet place to study or work on his homework. There should be no problem with this, as that is what school is for, working on school work. Then, if he wishes, he can use this time to sleep, especially if he's in a private room, and is sure he will wake up for his next class. But even if they just stick him in the library, he will be free from doing the work the librarian should be doing, and is paid to do, and if not sleep, he would be free to doodle or read a book for fun or something.</p>

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<p>It seems that the principal and the teachers have been flexible enough to let the student go to the high school for math. Not all schools are that flexible. So there is hope that further accommodation could be reached. I think a conference with the principal , the school counselor and possibly the librarian is called for to spell out what the student is expected to do and what he can expect from the school. If necessary, a call to the superintendent or to the school board could also be very helpful.</p>

<p>Elementary schools do not typically have study hall. Is his going to the library a way for him to be under adult supervision while his classmates are having math? Can he have other adult supervision that does not entail having to perform tasks that he is not even given credit for? Why can't he be allowed to go home under a blanket release, even if that happens only a few days a week? He could for instance have a form that stipulated that on such and such days, he was allowed to go home early. </p>

<p>My S took a class at the high school in 8th grade. Since the high school day began earlier than the elementary school day, it also ended earlier. The class was a two-period one that started right after lunch. My S walked to the high school for the class and went straight home afterward. Neither school made a fuss about this. It had all been cleared beforehand. In previous years, he sometimes went to the library when he had finished the assigned work earlier than his classmates but there was never any expectation that he would do chores.</p>

13

<p>"...school assigned him as student aid..." Without his permission? or yours? This doesn't sound acceptable to me. On the other hand, neither does asking for nap time. He should be leaving school or having a free study period. One other thought, which you'll please forgive me for--if he's falling asleep at the end of the school day, maybe he has too much going on every night in the way of homework or whatever?</p>

14

<p>Hi, </p>

<p>Thanks for all the very helpful advices, I really appreciate it very much, now I kind of know how to phrase my concerns when I talk to principal. </p>

<p>Here are a few more facts:</p>

<ol>
<li>about what he would prefer to do in that extra period?</li>
</ol>

<p>My son is very into math now, when he represented that high school in a statewide high school math competition, he was the only one from that high school in years who qualified for 2nd round of competition. ( he ranked 105th out of 2250 some 9th-12th graders, the first 200th got to go next round). the high school principal hand wrote a letter to my son to congradulate him and email son's middle school principal (cc to me) asked for a broadcast for such an acomplishment, sure the middle school didn't bother to do anything. Back to the topic, my son really prefers to do either schoolwork or some math at that time.......</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Study Hall?
My son said he never knew there are study hall in the school, but we will check out, mostly they don't have one.</p></li>
<li><p>School was accommendated for letting him go to high school ?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>No, we actually fight very hard for that. The first couple days as a 6th-grader,my son complained about how stupidly simple the class was, even though it was already a hornor class, equavalent to 7th grade (pre-algebra). I talked to teacher once , to counsolar and principal several times, they all insisted that he needs to stay there to build a good foundation, at that time I am not very sure about my son's level yet, so I let it be. Th whole 6th grade year was very miserable to my son, he was too young to dare to do his own study, he said he was staring at teacher or looking at those 'repeatative, silly stuff' (forgive his word please), felt like brain is about to explose. So he kept learning the Algebra himself at home.</p>

<p>Finally, at the end of 6th grade,I talked to principal again, then she told me they need some kind of documents to show that he is advanced in math. I downloaded some algebra test from web, and give him a time-limited, like real exame. Then I put his test results and a notebook of his math work in an evelope and sent it to school, asking for a conferrence between the teacher, parent and school administrative personnel. </p>

<p>two weeks later, principal called me back saying their conference (without me) resulted in believe my son should stay where he is. When my son asked his math teacher for all the materials I send to the school, the math teacher said she never knew there are such stuffs, and no one ever counsulted her if he should be allowed to go advance ( I only talked to her once when school just started). When my son took the evelope from the main office back home, I can tell no one had bothered to even take a look. </p>

<p>I got very upset, so I called county's superintendent, and asked for a third part's evaluation. County had him evaluated for about two hours by a math teacher from a gifted middle school program, the evaluation came back extreamly good, saying my son is actually on Algebra II level, and county send a letter to school, that finally made school agree to accomendate my son's needs. But somehow, from then on I felt the administrative personnel seemed dislike him, treat him very harshly every time he needs to deal with them, he is a very timid, shy person, a simple 'no' will stop him ask anything further. thank goodnees, all the teachers likes him, he is a straight 'A' in all the subjects, and everytime I talked to any teacher, they all gave him a very high remarks. and he said, the teacher appraised him a lot in the class too, so at least, he is happy in the class.</p>

<ol>
<li>Community service credit?</li>
</ol>

<p>My son talked to counsolar several times, and I talked to her too, the answer was always 'no, because the school never give student aid ' any credit. I argue for long with her, asking if school ever had any one student who ever worked in such a regular basese and for so long....she can only said we had some student aid here or there sometime, she promised will looked into it, but never got back to me about it......</p>

<ol>
<li>Stay later at night? </li>
</ol>

<p>Probably, he is also very much like piano and martial arts, he won county and state piano competition several times. Mostly After he gets back home, He will practice pinao about one hour , and more then one hour of martial art practice, and some game playing, or chatting with friends( after all he is still a kid), or just chatting, and eating, a little bit Tv etc, then his school's home work, then his beloved math,......so when there are a lot of homework or some projects, he will have to stay late, then gets up at 6:00am, which make him sleepy at the end of the day sometime......he said often that he wishs he could get his schoolwork done during that extra period, so when he gets home, he can spend more time on math or piano.....then he can go to bed early....</p>

<ol>
<li>Picking him up earlier each day is not possible, since me and my husband both work, I picked him up sometime when I was off from the work, but I can't do it on daily bases.</li>
</ol>

<p>I am feeling reluctant to face the guidance personnel anymore, so I am thinking to write a letter to principal, explain the situation and request to stop giving him the work to do during that period, I also can't help but wanting to complain about the counsolar's indifference towards student's needs, and then cc the letter to the counsolar to let the counsolar know I am not happy with her, what do you think? I know that may not be a wise thing to do though, but I need to let someone know that she is not qualified as a counsolar.....</p>

<p>I am also thinking to ask for credit for all the works he has done in the past, is it reasonable?</p>

<p>Thanks again for all the responses.</p>

15

<p>Most middle schools do not have a designated study hall in a classroom. And they generally do not have empty rooms. They certainly would not have a teacher to supervise your son in an empty room. So the library may be the most logical place for him to physically be. Have you talked directly to the librarian? The simplest thing, it seems to me, would be to negotiate directly with the librarian to turn the time period into a study hall in the library. See if you can simply bypass the counselor and principal if they have been uncooperative in the past. I agree with the person who pointed out that the librarian is probably under the mistaken impression that he is there to be her assistant and that part of her job is to keep him busy. She may have no idea that he is there because he starts his day an hour early and simply needs a "holding tank" at the end of the day. </p>

<p>(I also agree that you can't request official nap accomodations, although if he falls asleep in some secluded corner of the library during "study hall", so be it.)</p>

16

<p>here's another thought...</p>

<p>How happy are you and your son with the math class at the high school? If your son is only so-so about it, another way to provide him with more advanced math but keep him on the same schedule as the other middle school kids would be to have him do EPGY at the middle school instead of going to the high school and starting an hour early every day. That would allow him to progress at his own pace, which might be even better than the high school course. He could be in either the library or in a math teachers' classroom during that time period, but do his own EPGY math work.</p>

<p><a href="http://www-epgy.stanford.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www-epgy.stanford.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

17

<p>Hi, texas137:</p>

<p>Thanks for the advice, we never knew that alternative. His high school is actually boring too, it's too slow and repeatative for him, and now, already half way through the year, can we doing anything in the middle of the school year? I will take a look into it, I am sure the school will hates me for having so much requests.</p>

<p>He is learning math out of the school time though, just if he can eliminate all those unproductive time, he would be so much happy...</p>

<p>Thanks again for the link, I will definetly look into it.</p>

18

<p>I also have an unusually talented math kid (as does Marite, and some of the other posters here). The most that schools can generally deal with is a year or two of acceleration. Many of these kids are capable of much, much more. Also, teaching methods appropriate for normal learners may not be appropriate for a much younger kid who is at the same level because he is gifted. You might as well look at alternatives now, because it sounds like your son is on track to max out the high school pretty quickly also. If he is doing algebra II now, in 8th grade, he might be ready for AP calculus next year (pre-calc is just trig plus a rehash of algebra). Many high schools would balk at that, and the overwelming majority of high schools would have nothing to offer after AP calculus.</p>

<p>Schools tend to like EPGY because it is structured similarly to the school sequence. So they may be willing to let your son do EPGY and give him school credit. But it is very expensive, and your school may not want to pay for it. Your son may also prefer a different format. Another thing to check out would be credit by exam at your local university. Check with the college, not your son's counselor. Your middle/high schools may not know about it even if it is available. Then your son could do math however he wanted to, but still document it for the school so that he would get credit for the traditional courses. (my son never actually did EPGY. He preferred to do math on his own with materials we chose until he was ready for college courses. That worked for us because we homeschooled, but it would have been a difficult sell if we wanted him to get credit from a traditional middle or high school.)</p>

19

<p>Hi, Texas137:</p>

<p>Have ever take any class from egpy ? a quick look make me feel it's a lot like John Hopkins University's distance learning program, my son tried computer programming class with JHU, he ended up finished two and half computer classes in three months, the class was said to be college level, but still not in depth at all. </p>

<p>Looking at the curriculium on the web,those topics if taught in depth, then it's good, otherwise, I know my son already has a basic knowledge about all those topics.....I am not trying to brag, just want to make sure it's worthy before I spent money and time again, do you have any first hand knowledge about that program.....</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

20

<p>amother - our posts crossed, but it looks like I answered your question. Our personal choice was totally self directed self study through AP calculus, then distance learning through <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cee/dec/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.utexas.edu/cee/dec/&lt;/a> (not EPGY) for multivariable and linear algebra. Then auditing at our local university. My son has been accepted at MIT, and hopes to take credit by exam once he gets there for additional college coursework he is in the process of self studying. All this worked for us because we homeschooled. You will probably not have the same degree of freedom if your son will be continuing in school. Marite may have useful info about dealing with a school when you have a kid who is far outside the school's norm.</p>