Sophomore year aid disappointment

Paying for College
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<p>Often schools will not take all prior coursework in transfer. So, if she stays another year at Union, she may end up paying for courses that will not be accepted in transfer at her new school. If it is too late for a fall transfer atone of her more desired SUNY schools, it might be better to take a semester off, work, maybe take a class or two at community college and apply to transfer to a SUNY in the spring semester of 2015.</p>

<p>It is a difficult situation, it will be painful for her either way. But, prolonging the inevitable may make it all the more painful after spending another year at Union. Thinking of every special event as the last time she will do this with her friends at Union. </p>

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<p>KatMT makes a great point regarding coursework in transfer but the crux of the issue is that Union is not in any way imaginable - in my opinion - affordable for your family. This may be insensitive but GET OVER IT. That’s reality and the good news is your daughter has excellent options. Now take ahold of the band aid and rip it off. Move on. Your daughters will learn that life does indeed go on, potentially in new and interesting ways. The SUNYs are a great choice. Be happy that you’ve got those choices because lots of people in this world have absolutely no choice at all. Say yes to college in an excellent ABET-accredited engineering program and for pity’s sake stop digging your financial grave with this pile of debt. </p>

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<p>Mom2college kids:
Re: 401K question: a conservative rule of thumb is figure on withdrawing 4-5% annually from your 401K during retirement. This is just a rule of thumb. Some years like last year were huge double digit growth years. Some like 2009 were in the negative numbers. It’s totally individual. Some people live frugally and some don’t. Some have the house paid off, some don’t. Some want to leave money for the kids and some can’t. You get the picture.</p>

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<p>The IRS has a schedule of required withdrawals from retirement plans including IRAs (not Roth IRAs) and 401ks once the holder has reached age 70.5. The amounts are based on life expectancy.
<a href=“Retirement Plan and IRA Required Minimum Distributions FAQs | Internal Revenue Service”>http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Retirement-Plans-FAQs-regarding-Required-Minimum-Distributions&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>When in crisis, look hard at today. Granted, it’s not easy for some to live on 94k (or 75) with five and college- and I know some expenses can’t be altered, like mortgage, but you look at everything that goes out and what can be cut. Cut with a positive attitude. </p>

<p>I Iaughed about the prom dress, because my girls discovered a great, ultra cheap “downtown” store where adorable dresses cost less than $30. I think the one her friends cooed over was $19.</p>

<p>We did take Parent Plus, but you should know exactly how it would add up, before taking the first one, and how payments will grow, with each successive school year. (You can google.) And how you will pay them over the next ten years, how they truly will impact your budget, going forward. Sorry for your situation.</p>

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<p>if you and your husband are insistent on pulling our 19k from your retirement (which I do not recommend), at least you should be able to take solace in the fact that this 19k could pay for SUNY. if you D takes a summer job for books and misc. she could graduate having no future debt.</p>

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<p>Just back from a long day, but should clarify something. Some have said we will “take 19K from retirement.” No, the living off IRA disbursements because of job loss is over. And there is still money in the IRAs, not a lot but some. My husband is 62 and now entitled to take not $19K, I was mistaken, but he told me this morning $24,000 a year as his pension from his annuity that he built up over many years at the corporate job. That annuity, which we can’t touch of course, is $500,000. The IRAs, which were fine too, are almost all gone because of the five unhappy years of unemployment/underemployment (curses to big corporations that let go of senior people at age 57 after over 30 years of exemplary service. It is happened to so, so many. The NYT has portrayed so many difficult scenarios). So our retirement is not dire by any means. As of May 1st, our net income will be a comfortable $99,000 and we will not (as I said a few pages ago, rather hysterically, please forgive), not be living “paycheck to paycheck.” We will have savings and will be able each month to pay off the unfortunate credit card debt. And let me reiterate, the $19K is not coming from retirement IRAs; it is his pension which will go on for years and years. </p>

<p>The advice here has been excellent, single-minded and single-directed, and I thank everyone who has taken the time to read and comment on a delicate subject raised by a stranger who, quite frankly, opened the door of her soul and asked for help. After I posted that with our D we talked about a transfer to Stony Brook or New Paltz after her sophomore year (and she accepted, concurred, and still expressed support and love for us, thank God), all the advice was against this and urged her to make the transfer now. Remember, we haven’t gotten the awards letter yet and we had a free ride the first year (well, except for a little bit of loans).She will certainly get her Merit scholarship renewed which is over $20,000. And I have talked about our dilemma with the director of financial aid and there may be needs-based aid. We haven’t gotten the letter yet. Union has a trimester calendar and D is facing midterms in chemistry, physics, calculus, and Chinese. She is stressed and has just been thrown a stunning curve ball. She has always been a tender girl, the type who cried at kindergarten. She was salutatorian of her class, I think I mentioned that. There are definite downsides to her taking a sophomore year at Union. True, not all credits might transfer. That is important. But as to getting more attached, I believe that will happen in a way, but also to the contrary, come October, she will be doing the SUNY transfer application and, if the routine follows as it did in 2013 when the acceptances came in, she will get her admittance letter in January. It will deeply sink in that Fall 2015 will entail a transfer to Stony Brook or New Paltz. We reiterated this on the drive up to Union this afternoon and she said yes, she understood. Yes, regrettably, we (she) will have to take on debt to follow this course of action. But from where I sit, I truly think she would have a nervous breakdown if she knew she only had a few more weeks at Union. As someone posted above, this means following our heart but not our head. But we are not in the crisis mode we were for years. D2 does not resent in the least D1 having a second year at Union. She is fully supportive and understands the awful predicament D1 and her parents fell into. </p>

<p>I wonder what to think of the Union financial aid dept. Should they have warned me that they would overlook the retirement dispersement only once but count it with net income the second year? I guess not. </p>

<p>I know readers will shake their heads, but I can’t kill this daughter. If it were D2, who is more tough, rational, and independent, I think we would go for the SUNY for this September, truly. I can totally feel it that she would rearrange the thoughts in her head to accommodate this. And the 11 year old is totally tough! But D1 is tender, vulnerable and loyal, and when she decides something she sticks to it. It would mean a lot to me if I were not scolded for our decision and if some one, even one person, said they understood where I am coming from. </p>

<p>From the bottom of my heart I want to thank everyone who stood in my shoes for a period of time and offered recourse. You can tell that you helped us (me) make a decision, get the courage to talk to D1, and have her get a new vision for her future. We may not be going as far as we can, but I have to know my daughter’s heart, which is as sensitive as they come. </p>

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<p>If I can try your patience a little further, I would like to pose some questions that I have been pondering over the past few days. You are skilled and informed advisers and may be able to shed some light on what to me are very puzzling questions and, indeed, reveal my density.</p>

<p>I have a friend in town who does not work. Her husband makes a good salary at Verizon. She told me they got no financial aid for their two children. The girl went to Tufts; the boy is now a sophomore at Michigan. How do they do it? Do they take out loans? They are not compulsive people and I don’t imagine them having salted money away for years for college. The girl is now living in Manhattan (not one of the boroughs!) at an entry level job and I believe they are helping her with her rent.</p>

<p>And I know a family with three children right in a row. The first girl went to Hobart Wm Smith, the second to Ithaca and the son (not as bright as the two older girls) went to a sleep-away community college. The parents have modest jobs but I can’t imagine them getting a free ride. The first girl is now getting a Masters at Brown. ???</p>

<p>And another mom who doesn’t work has a senior at RPI and a freshman at a LAC in Pennsylvania. They live in a very upscale development that I know has punishing taxes. </p>

<p>Another family with a senior at Occidental (plane fare etc!) and a freshman at University of Chicago.</p>

<p>I could go on but I will stop. </p>

<p>I am stunned and do not understand.</p>

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<p>It would have been very nice had the Union financial aid office made it very clear that the aid package was due to a one year exception for hardship, I agree. It’s always nice to have it all laid out, but that is not the way the world works. Did you really expect to continue to have income ignored that most everyone else, other than due to hardship gets counted in the aid process? Absolutely, pension payouts are included as income If your crisis is now over, and you have "settled " into a payment mode, you are better off than most families. So I see absolutely no reason for Union or any college to give you more aid than what come out of the NPC calculators. That is what you will be expected to pay given the income you had in 2013. The IRS wanted their piece of this too, did they not? That is your family income.</p>

<p>When your second daughter starts college, your FAFSA EFC, the parental part will be cut in half and most PROFILE schools will multiply the expected parental contribution by .6 so all thing equal, that year your contribution, IF Union meets full need (Which they are not under any obligation to do, nor do they guarantee it) would be about $25K for her. But bear in mind that would also be the amount expected to be paid to your other DD if she should go to a PROFILE school. Those are about rock bottom as to what you will be expected to pay, IMO. Though the FAFSA EFC will be lower, it’s tough to get any school to meet need as defined by FAFSA. Of course a merit award exceeding those amounts you have to pay would be another way that the cost could be reduced. </p>

<p>Good luck on your DD1’s aid package that is forthcoming, and most importantly, I hope everyone’s health remains good. You and your husband need to discuss what you will be paying for your other daughters’ colleges, so that you are all on the same page.</p>

<p>As one with a number of kids, I can tell you that it’s not over even when college is over, especially when you have a kid that can’t swing with the change. You think college is tough, the job world is many times more difficult . That transition is so much more difficult and paying for it, because yes, as parents we do want them on their two feet and one can see it coming and want to facilitate it, because you will have the other kids’ cost as well, and you are older, both you and your husband. Makes for much riskier times. Even with a major that has good employment prospect and wages, it doesn’t all just land on the kid’s lap. Plus, it’s never 100% that a student will stick with a given major, especially engineering. I have a friend who got left holding the bag and is in financial ruins as well as her daughter because she did not pull the plug when she should have, could have, and the break downs that occurred later were far more serious as a result and the train wreck was really preventable. But when it happened, there was little control of what was salvageable. She has other kids as well, and they are all stuck with going to community college and working part time. College isn’t even the biggest issue in their lives as things are quite dire. The stress has aged my friend terribly</p>

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<p>You don’t know who has been putting money away… we started saving when our kids were in day care, and put the pre-tax dollars we got back in lump sums into their college accounts. People also may get gifts from grandparents or inheritances you don’t know anything about. My best friend from college’s dad died her senior year of college (single parent, her mom died when she was small). She and her sibling got very decent inheritances due to life insurance proceeds when she was 22 years old; she was about to get married, and she put it away for their kids’ college educations (last one is in college now). Also, some schools do give good sized chunks of merit aid (I bet that kid at the LAC in PA is getting some). And the kids may be maxing out their federal loans, and the parents may be taking out loans as well. Or maybe they are also raiding their retirement accounts…</p>

<p>No way to know, you need to focus on your family’s financial situation and what is healthiest for you. The best thing you can do is (1) make sure you kids do graduate from college, and (2) keep your own finances healthy so they don’t have to support you in your old age.</p>

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<p>Don’t count other people’s money because nothing good ever comes of it. For all you know they have done the same thing you are talking about don’t; being in hock up to their eyeballs and spending the next 20 years paying non-dischargable through bankruptcy student loan debt.</p>

<p>The family with 3 kids in college all in NYS, their Federal EFC is going to be lower because it is divided by 3 kids. They may have also been eligible for TAP (NYS aid). </p>

<p>This family has definitely benefited from having 3 children in college at the same time when it comes to need based aid (these kids were probably able to attend their private college for the same amount or less $ that they would have paid for SUNY. Even if the family’s EFC was $60k if they were making well over 200k, 20K per kid having need based aid picking up the rest of the tab is still a good deal).</p>

<p>I would not worry about the Masters at Brown because once a student hits grad school, they are an independent student (her parents income/assets will no longer be used) and if she is credit worthy, the student can borrow up to the full cost of attendance on her own as a direct loan with out her parents.</p>

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<p>You don’t know what they saved, if grandparents paid, if they got some kind of scholarships. Maybe they had a baseball card collection they sold. You also don’t know if they are willing to take out large loans. Many people are.</p>

<p>Don’t worry about it.</p>

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<p>Absolutely, do not go around counting other people’s money. They could have relatives helping them out as you have been helping yours. My neighbor across the street has three girls just as you do. Both go to $60K+ a year private colleges, much like Union with the youngest in private high school. But the mom’s father is a contractor who built and bought that house for his daughter and her family so they have NO MORTGAGE. Plus Dad is right there helping with home repairs, yard thing, he has all of the connections. I am sitting on the other side of the street dreading what spring repairs my house is going to need after this rough winter. My driveway I know needs to be paved, the gutters, the roof, all have to be inspected, and I already know that one garage door opener is gone–we’re manually lifting but DH’s shoulders are in bad shape and I’m a pretty tiny person. Not to mention the cars, the air conditioner, whatever for the spring. I haven’t picked out any flowers or plantings since know we are in for it. My neighbors? They are planting away with help and Dad (granddad ) at the helm directing, and for all I know paying He may well be paying for his granddaughters’ tuitions, for all I know. It’s none of my business and has nothing to do with how I have to make my ends meet. </p>

<p>I have a friend who has done the same, bought houses for her children when they got married, and I know her grandkids already at preschool ages have college funds set up. Her kids are doing well, but no way on their incomes alone would they be living the way they are. They are looking at top priced nursery and private schools for the little ones, and grandparents will be paying the entire tab. </p>

<p>Also, some folks did well some years ago and then the job market changed. Happened to us But they may have some money stashed from those days. Plus, people take out loans. Some bet their old age financial security on their kids’ success and that they will support them. They lose…well, not a pretty picture. I know many, many who are my age who are tearfully sticking their parents in Medicaid nursing homes because they cannot take care of these elder folks with their issues, and the current family situation just doesn’t lend itself for helping them out. It doesn’t get easier as you get older, necessarily. Your DH is old to have a little one like you have, and you’ve already gotten a taste of what very easily can happen again to your family in terms of health emergency and/or unemployment. That job your husband has can disappear. </p>

<p>Your second daughter does not necessarily have to let the Bard and other private schools go. She has to understand the financial issues and go for the ones with merit possibilities. My son did have some acceptances from some $60K+ schools with no aid. Off the table they went without a thought. Me? Yes, it hurt. But he got it. He did pick the most expensive option we said we could afford, but we said $X and $X it was. We didn’t pressure him to look at the lower cost schools to save us money, though we did say that we’d pay the difference to him so he’d have it at graduation, making the cost savings a benefit to him too. But he wanted to go away to a bigger name school, so that was that. But not for more than we said we could pay. </p>

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<p>Agree with others. Don’t count other people’s money. You honestly don’t know what their finances really are. Maybe they lease their fancy cars. Maybe their families gave them huge down payments for their homes. Maybe they saved every bonus they received in anticipation of college costs (something I WISH we had done!). </p>

<p>Your situation is the only one that matters to you. It doesn’t matter at all what others have, are spending, can pay for college, or how they do it.</p>

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<p>OPM (other people’s money) is often mysterious. I have a friend who lives contentedly on next to nothing. However, her parents provided the 20% down to avoid their having to pay PMI, another relative bought their vehicle, their vacations are paid for, and they qualify for various types of aid because their income is low. She is frugal and careful but never seems to feel deprived, and she’s not worried about retirement as the only child of well-off parents.</p>

<p>I read your tale with sympathy and I wish you and yours the best. What a help that your husband has that pension to help out. It is necessary to be aware of the bottom line and the way things could go South, necessary not to tempt fate or hock the future, but I find it is also good to live with some degree of hope and trust. Calamities can and do happen; time enough to freak out when they do. Until then, you make the best plan you can and have good hope that your family will adapt and do well. Best wishes to you.</p>

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<p>"I could go on but I will stop.</p>

<p>I am stunned and do not understand."</p>

<p>Nor do you need to understand. It’s not your money or your business. </p>

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<p>I’ve posted about my friend whose two kids each got full PELL, full state aid, subsidized loans, SEOG, and some school money that added up to quite a pretty penny for college. Their father was a big time surgeon making well into the half million mark in income. He refused to release his numbers for PROFILE schools and he and his financial advisor insisted that things be done a certain way so that the kids got as much money out of the system as possible. And they did. My friend would have much preferred her kids to have gone to private colleges as they had gone to private schools all the way through but it was “his way or the highway”. </p>

<p>With your DH out of work, the money YOU have spent on relatives’ aid, your three adoptions, it’s actually amazing for you to have a child at a school like Union and for them to give you the aid that made it possible, for those who don’t happen to know your husband has a great pension and other backlogged money That was a bit of twist in your story in the middle of this thread. Had you given that info from the beginning, I think some of us would have just told you that you were danged lucky to even get that one year concession from Union. The PROFILE schools do look at pension and other qualified plan funds, and can and have made the decision that it’s time for a family to start using that money for college, just as you and your DH has come to that decision just a year after Union gave you a break the first year. Not everyone has that kind of buffer in pensions, you know That schools offer that break is not something they HAVE to do. </p>

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<p>I know this is very difficult. Since nothing is set in stone now, you want to wait until the financial aid package come in and I think it’s hard to believe that Union won’t give you a preferred package like they did last year. </p>

<p>You can wait for the FA package but I think that you need to prepare yourself, your H and D that if the package is as bad as imagined that she can not go back. My D had a friend who could not afford the school her second year and decided not to come back her second year. She took a semester off, took a class at CC, worked and applied to the state flagship. You know what, she survived and loved her new school. Really thrived and bloomed. It worked out. </p>

<p>I am hoping you are not feeling beat up here. Everyone is concerned for you. I’ve been here a long time and know that the posters here don’t want you to make decisions that will be detrimental to your future. </p>

<p>I am going to say this, as a mom to 2 engineers one of whom is a female and has a H who is an engineer by trade and is now a manager. Engineering is a male dominated field. I am not saying that the field is not sympathetic to female engineers, they want female engineers. But you have to be tough. You can not be fragile or emotional or afraid of having your feeling hurt. I am making assumptions but men are blunt and they are not going to coddle. I am afraid that while you are trying not to hurt your D’s feelings and saying that she will be depressed if she transfers, that maybe the rough and tumble world of engineering is not for her. Engineering is a great field but she will have classes and labs where she will be the only girl in the group and she needs to power her way in those groups. Work will be no different. </p>

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<p>I hope things work out for your family. I empathize, sounds like you’ve had some lean years to deal with after many years of a comfortable life. That must be a difficult adjustment. I don’t know anything about FA myself, but it sounds from this thread like there is a lot to understand about what is and is not counted as income and also how changed circumstances affect awards. A real cautionary tale. If you are going to attend school with FA covering much of it, one really has to spend time going over the details and be sure to know how the award could change. </p>

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<p>I also want to say that your situation in not unique. The only thing that I think is unusual is that Union gave a break the first year and was not clear of the 2nd year. I am sure that it was never imagined that you would have to pull a substantial amount from your 401k either. I am also surprised that Union allowed you to use the outside scholarship for your EFC as that is a bit unusual. </p>

<p>I have a friend who’s H just went back to work after a 3 year layoff. They also had major medical bills as illness was the reason for the layoff. They also really did not understand about need based aid and how it worked. They also have a great D who is smart and wonderful and motivated. Things have been hard because of her fathers illness and she has great scores, grades and EC’s. The difference is that she is a senior this year. And no need based schools came close to being affordable. She has a couple of options left, 2 state schools and a private that maybe they can afford with loans. Now I think that they should pick the more affordable school because she is not going into a high paying profession. But the parents are so sad. Their girl had a dream and they can’t afford to give her that dream. </p>

<p>What I am trying to say that many of us (me included) have wonderful, smart, hard working kids that we can’t give everything we want. </p>