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<p>Nifong’s unreasonable prosecution of the gase when the evidence overwhelmingly favored the lacrosse players was also quite scandalous.</p>
<p>this thread is stupid and getting petty.</p>
<p>there is no such thing as a southern ivy</p>
<p>the ivies are an athletic conference-A BAD ONE</p>
<p>they shifted their focus on academics years ago.while it is true you occasionally will see an ivy school have a good team in a sport, they do not do it consistently. They do not make money from it like the big 10, sec, pac 10, and acc do</p>
<p>to the person talking about how few schools are as good academically and athletically as the acc, I would argue that it is a WASH between all aforementioned conferences. </p>
<p>This is all opinion however. I want to know why this conversation is being brought up? The ivy league will NEVER expand. They are a bunch of elitists who make PLENTY of money so they have no incentive. Also, there will never be a conference formed around southern states who are good academically and decent at sports. The reason to make athletic conferences is MONEY. There is no money in a substandard league. The Big Ten is looking at adding Texas to the conference. Why? It sure isn’t because they are regionally close. It is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$</p>
<p>That is all these conferences about. It will always be this way until a drastic change of the NCAA system. When the ACC RAIDED the big east, it wasn’t for academics. It was for…MONEY. When the Big EAST filled their open spots with cincinatti and louisville was it because they are eastern schools? Good academically? No. It was for MONEY. The big ten has eleven teams. Why? $$</p>
<p>It is all these colleges care about, and anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves</p>
<p>Wow. Talk about a hijacked thread. Back to the OPs point, that would be not only a great conference but a great group of similar schools as far as size, quality, and mission. Davidson would be on the small side but they are a great school already playing a D1 level so they can stay. The state schools of NC and VA are excellent schools but dont quite fit in with the rest. Public, Research and much much larger than the other schools. </p>
<p>I would love to see the Ivy’s have a PR competitor.</p>
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<p>Sorry, but in practice and in theory you are wrong. Don’t take my word for it, log onto Google, type in the words Duke lacrosse – and what is the very first “suggested” entry?</p>
<p>Duke lacrosse SCANDAL. Period. You can try to fight perception all you want. Good luck.</p>
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<p>Now that is perception as best as you can define it (since the algorithms that define what is a “popular” search isn’t biased – it is simply a mathematical function of demand or what is popular).</p>
<p>And according to Google’s dictionary, the textbook definition of the word “scandal”:</p>
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<p>Was the Duke lacrosse “incident” an event that was thought to be shocking / immoral and everyone was talking about it? Absolutely. I mean you had white students from a wealthy university, a black stripper, you had accusations of rape, accusations of a hate crime, a sensational criminal case that had international / national coverage, I mean what more do you want? It was absolutely a scandal in every sense of the word.</p>
<p>Besides, do you think that 100% of the general public know that these students were never formally convicted of anything? You just know there was a scandal. You just now it was a seedy affair that involved the words: rape, hate crime, jocks and strippers. At the very best, it is incredibly bad judgment.</p>
<p>the_prestige - I am not sure if you are purposely missing their point or what, but they are not arguing that the public doesn’t perceive the Duke situation as a scandal, but that the final facts showed that what the real travesty was, i.e. what was really scandalous, was the way the Duke administration and Nifong each behaved. Of course you are right that with the general public you cannot unring that bell with a lot of them, hence civil suits being filed by the students. But I will also add that the reaction of many of the Duke faculty was reprehensible. Here you have people that are supposedly among the finest scholars in the world, and supposedly the most open to the free exchange of ideas, among which I would assume are “innocent until proven guilty” and “let’s see what the facts are before forming a conclusion”. Yet dozens, if not hundreds of them almost immediately formed the academic equivalent of a lynch mob regarding these students. It was sickening.</p>
<p>That is what Cuse and warbler, and now I, are talking about.</p>
<p>With due respect fallenchemist, I followed this case with extreme interest and probably know more about it and its outcome than the average Joe. My post was not addressing the outcome of this case.</p>
<p>What I was addressing was warbler’s comment that:</p>
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<p>This is simply not the case. It WAS a scandal. Whether it was deserved, whether it was right is a moot point – you cannot unring the bell as you say.</p>
<p>So for someone to try and “correct” my usage of the word scandal in favor of a more palatable term is missing the point.</p>
<p>No, I am agreeing with you that the event in the public realm is a scandal. I read warbler’s comment to mean that based on the actual facts of the case as they turned out, what the students did was not scandalous, even if it was in fact a scandal as it played out in public. Terrible judgement, probably. But what the administration and faculty ended up doing, and absolutely what Nifong did, were the true scandals. And when I say true scandals, I mean was the true scandalous behavior. You see, a phrase like that can be taken two ways.</p>
<p>So I don’t think you and warbler disagree most likely. Warbler wasn’t addressing what you are talking about, I don’t think. I don’t think he was even remotely addressing whether it was a scandal in the public’s mind. He was trying to emphasize (hence the quote marks) how much worse what these other parties did was.</p>
<p>No one could argue that the case wasn’t a scandal by definition, even if it was, in the end unjustified. I think you are reading warbler’s post too literally, because you are ignoring the intent of putting scandal in “quotes”. In the end what they did should have been an incident or case, which I am sure is what he meant. I sure read it that way.</p>
<p>Duke is a great school but some of these Duke kids are getting a little too serious. No one was hating on Duke and saying that people love to hate it is stupid because thats true of many schools. But in terms of a Southern Ivy League i think the original question was not so focused on whether or not such a thing can exist because i think that in all pratical terms it cannot and will not, similarly the Ivy League will obvioulsy not expand. That being said i believe the original question was asking IF such a thing did exist which schools would be part of it basicly addressing what the best schools are in the South. No one is hating on Duke since everyone agrees that Duke would be on that list and would probably be first or or second to Gtown.</p>
<p>fallenchemist, i know what you are saying.</p>
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<p>let’s not go too far. the students did hire the strippers, there was that incredible email about killing and mutilating strippers which was sent out (whether in jest or not – it was absolutely in poor taste, and again – at best – shows an incredible lack of judgment).</p>
<p>i mean let’s not make these guys out to be saints while demonizing the school. no one is going to buy that for a minute.</p>
<p>I think saying “terrible judgement” pretty much says that I think they are not saints. Clearly they are not, but then I know very few anyway. And I am not demonizing the school (I really like Duke as a school!), but I am certainly calling on the carpet those administrators and faculty that rushed to judgement and behaved extremely badly. They are not students; they are supposed to know much, much better. As I see it, the President acted cowardly and the faculty put their own political agenda ahead of reason, the welfare of these students, and the tried and true common sense aphorisms I mentioned previously.</p>
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<p>This doesn’t exactly help with the anti-Duke stereotypes, does it??</p>
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<p>True, but football is the highest profile and most profitable college sport. Duke knows this, which is why it is trying to get better at the sport. Now it is paying David Cutcliffe more money than any previous football coach. And more importantly, Duke is relaxing its admissions standards for football recruits such that fully one-third of them could be minimum NCAA qualifiers.</p>
<p>And hate to break it to you, but except for basketball, very few people care about the other Duke teams in the top 10 (or not).</p>
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<p>Well, this should go without saying since Duke is the only USN&WR top 20 school in the ACC. Duke better do the best academically, considering it is competing against among others: “Maryland…a school full Georgetown rejects, who are jealous of Duke and Duke students [and] dUNCe…another school that’s full of students who are jealous of Duke.” (YOUR words, not mine) </p>
<p>But let’s compare Duke athletes against Ivy athletes in the classroom, shall we??</p>
<p>I think Duke and Georgetown would join the Ivy League about one second after it was offered to them.</p>
<p>“Maryland a school full of Georgetown rejects” </p>
<p>is this a joke?</p>
<p>Why would anyone want to see another athletic league like the Ivy League? It stinks. </p>
<p>If you’ve attended SEC, Big 12, ACC sporting events, you know that there is a huge difference in the fun factor there and what you’ll find in athletic not-hot spots like New Haven or West Philadelphia or Hanover or Providence. </p>
<p>Part of the beauty of what you get when you go to Duke or Wake Forest or Vanderbilt or even Rice is you get to go some of the most exciting and relevant college sporting events in the country. And the publics of U Virginia and U North Carolina are even more dynamic, spirited and entertaining. </p>
<p>So, don’t even think about splitting these great academic colleges from their athletic conferences as that element adds so much to the college experience of their students and provides a regular, lifelong link to their graduates. </p>
<p>Btw, I don’t think anyone in the South thinks of Maryland as being in the South. Same with DC. Also, IMO suggestions that either Johns Hopkins or Georgetown are southern universities are pretty far off. Neither feels southern at all. U Virginia retains a southern element, but has been materially influenced by the large NoVA influx and those folks aren’t southerners either. U North Carolina is the most southern of this bunch of schools (more so than Duke and Vanderbilt and even Rice).</p>
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<p>I hope you are joking. They wouldn’t join in a million years. About as many years as revenue $$ they would lose if they did move. Get real, please.</p>
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<p>LOL hell no.</p>
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<p>Yeah, why the heck would you want to go to a university / college which was a member of an athletic league known around the world for its academic excellence? Why would you want to aspire to that? That’s just crazy talk.</p>
<p>After all, every prospective student aspires to be a scholar athlete right? Every prospective student cares about big time collegiate sports right? That’s what really matters once you have graduated right?</p>
<p>In sum, why in the world would you want to go to a school known for its academics? After all, sports is really what counts in the real world (even if you didn’t ever suit up, you can show your prospective employers your championship t-shirts, that’ll wow 'em for sure).</p>
<p>prestige, what are you talking about? He didn’t say anything about not going to a university that is academically excellent. He is saying that the Ivy League is not (usually) competitive in the big revenue sports. Anyway, I think you are taking the post far too seriously. Chill.</p>
<p>Prestige,
The idea of creating another athletic conference like the Ivies stinks. The Ivies are not competitive in major sports and their quality and relevance is at a level more akin to Division III than real Division I. </p>
<p>As for your question,</p>
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<p>nice straw man argument. I’m not arguing that places like Florida State are superior college choices than any Ivy college.</p>
<p>My great news for you and others is that there are many excellent non-Ivy colleges that can offer BOTH academic AND athletic excellence. Those schools include Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame. Good arguments could also be made for privates like Georgetown, USC, and Wake Forest. </p>
<p>Additional arguments could also be made for Honors students at publics like UC Berkeley, U Virginia, UCLA, U Michigan, U North Carolina, Georgia Tech, U Illinois, U Wisconsin, U Washington, Penn State, U Florida, U Texas. </p>
<p>Unlike the Ivies, all of these colleges can offer students excellence in the classroom and in major college sports like football, basketball (men and women), and baseball. For many students, it’s a better all-around undergraduate experience that pays “fun” dividends alongside their diplomas from highly regarded colleges/programs.</p>
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<p>I’m very chill. I think its you who needs to chill.</p>