Specialties and Residencies!

<p>What exactly does it mean to "match" into a residency program? Does the residency program determine what type of physician you will be?</p>

<p>And if I'm thinking correctly, does that mean that after going through med school there is lots of competition to get into certain fields, so after going through 4 more years of school you may not get to be the kind of physician you wanted?</p>

<p>It would suck to go through med school and then settle for being family practice or pediatrics if you really wanted to practice radiology or neurosurgery just cause you didnt match?</p>

<p>And so how does one get into "competitive residencies".. is it similar to college/med school admissions..i.e. med school grades, research, leadership, etc?</p>

<p>These are just my thoughts on some small amount of information, I've heard, could someone please clarify how exactly getting into your specialty of choice works??</p>

<p>Everything you said was correct.</p>

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so after going through 4 more years of school you may not get to be the kind of physician you wanted?

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</p>

<p>Having 5000 dermatologists, 5000 neurosurgeons, 3500 orthopedic surgeons, 500 pediatricians, and 250 internists would not be good for our health system.</p>

<p>The "match" is the National Residency Match Program. It's the process that determines not only which specialty you enter but also where. </p>

<p>During the fourth year of medical school, M4's begin applying to the programs they are interested during the fall. This is the point at which the students pick their future specialty. If you're like my roommate's boyfriend and don't have much of a clue what you want to do, you can apply to programs across a variety of fields (in his case - ophtho, anesthesia, psych, and radiology) and figure out what you want to do while the year progresses and you complete interviews. </p>

<p>Interviews occur Late Oct/Nov-Jan. In February, (actually pretty soon), students are required to submit their rank order lists (ROL), in which they've listed their choices in order. Residency programs then rank in order the students they've interviewed, and a computer goes through and places the student in the most favorable location. It's actually a process that is identical to the ways in which sororities process the preferences of new members. </p>

<p>The Match does benefit the student and is likely the most fair method of securing residency positions. In the days prior to the match, residency programs would search the medical schools for the top students during the M1 and M2 years, and offer them training spots (this was back in the 40's and 50's when there were much fewer pathways). This caused a lot of problems for students and programs. On one hand as a student it was nice to have an offer, but there was always the risk that something better might come along and you might have already signed a contract of some sort. Likewise programs had to take risks that they might have last minute defections or that if they waited they'd be left with the duds. So that's why they created the match.</p>

<p>There is a lot of competition to get into certain fields, but med students (for the most part) are pretty aware of the competition. To some extent, a lot of people realize early on that they aren't going to be competitive for certain fields and quickly adjust their career goals. People hoping to go into Derm know that it's the most competitive field (mainly because of how few spots there are), and as such have back up plans. </p>

<p>For Derm, ortho, ENT, RadOnc, and Plastics (the only fields in 2007 in which there were fewer available spots than US Seniors applying), these particularly specialties all require a transitional or prelim year before you actually enter in to the specific training of those fields. So it is possible to not match coming out of the 4th year of med school, and try going through the match again to get into your desired field. It's a risky position to be in, but for some people this re-matching decision is their back up plan. If you look at the 2007 Report of Charting Outcomes in the Match (on the AAMC website) you'll see that most people applying for derm or plastics have multiple specialties show up on their ROL's. A significant number of RadOnc applicants also ranked more than just RadOnc. So people know to hedge their bets.</p>

<p>As far as being competitive for these fields, board scores and grades during the 3rd year of medical school are the most important factors. Step 1 matters more in these fields than others, mainly because these people have scored so high, that they put off Step 2 as long as they can so that the score won't affect their match if possible. After those items, the Dean's letter and the LOR's are important. Honors like Alpha Omega Alpha can carry some weight, but generally are more likely markers of success rather than the actual honor being important. Research can be important, but probably is important on an institution by institution (and program by program basis within an institution) basis. Finally, pre-clinical grades and leadership experiences are less important. That's not to say they're irrelevant, and a student who knows how to sell their experiences can make good use, but on the whole, residency programs aren't preoccupied with them.</p>

<p>Remember though that the interview counts for a lot as well - the programs are looking at students as people they're going to be working with for the next 3-7 years. There's something to be said about being pleasant and enjoyable to work with, something that doesn't always go into college or medical school acceptance decisions. If you're personality doesn't mesh well, it's likely the applicant won't rank the program highly and vice versa. One of the things I see this really commonly come up is women and starting a family (or if they already have kids). A woman with 2 kids already and a 3rd on teh way, isn't going to be a good fit in a program in which no one has any kids and none of the women are pregnant. There certainly are programs where that's frowned upon, while at others, family life is very important.</p>

<p>All that said, the best predictor of matching into one's preferred specialty, according to the AAMC report is the number of contiguous programs from the preferred specialty one ranks on their ROL. In plain words, you have a better chance of matching if you rank Derm programs 1-10, than if you rank Derm programs only 1-6. Of course, you might end up at that #10th ranked program, but you do get to be a dermatologist. Whether this is simply a marker of tenacity or something else, the fact remains that all things being equal, the person who ranks more programs in a row increases the likelihood of getting into that field. </p>

<p>Now, it should also be pointed out that within each specialty, there are certainly places in which it's much more difficult to get into, more so than the average program in that field. Since I'm interested in Peds, I'll use that as my example. Average Step 1 score for someone interested in going peds is 217. But I guarantee that the average board score for a peds intern at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) is much higher than that, probably closer to 230. CHOP is pretty widely regarded as the top pediatrics program in the country, and so like anything, they have a lot of people who want to go there. Of course, there are also a lot of people like me who feel very different about residency prestige and are much more concerned about where they're going to live rather than going to a "top" program. You'd have to pay me a lot more than a resident's salary to get me to live in Philly or NYC or Boston. I have zero interest in living in those cities. So there are definite lifestyle issues that are very important in residency decision making.</p>

<p>So to recap:</p>

<p>-Student picks the specialty and applies to programs within that specialty.
-Match is designed in favor of the student, tries to match them to their top choice, not find the programs their top groups of residents.
-Competitive specialties do have many people who don't match, most people are realists, have a plan B.
-Step 1 > Clerkship grades > Dean's letter/LOR's > Research/pre-clinical grades > leadership/volunteering is the order of importance in things to make a student competitive for getting an interview invite
-Interview matters a lot.
-There are competitive programs in every field.
-Things like geography, family life, and so on are much more important to applicants than they ever are in college/med school decisions. People have actual lives when they get out of medical school and there are all sorts of things that may matter more than going to the #1 most amazing program in the world.</p>

<p>
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Having 5000 dermatologists, 5000 neurosurgeons, 3500 orthopedic surgeons, 500 pediatricians, and 250 internists would not be good for our health system.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know this was a sarcastic post, but there are some key points to bring up from it.</p>

<p>1) This incorrectly judges the situation in the match. These specialties are difficult to get into because there are so few spots...not because everyone wants to be these fields. (320 Derm spots, 270 ENT, 92 Plastics, 142 Rad Onc, 616 Ortho). Certainly it becomes very obvious that a lot more people want to do Medicine or Peds when you see that over 2800 US Seniors applied for spots at Medicine programs and over 1700 US seniors to Peds programs. </p>

<p>2) Derm is gross. You have to see all the nasty things that PCP's look at and think, "I don't want to deal with this".</p>

<p>3) Neuroscience is awful for a great many people. The hours in Neurosurg residency are the worst out of any field. I believe that every single Neurosurg residency program has applied for and received permission for the 10% relaxation in work hours rules, so the neurosurg residents are allowed to work 88 hours/week. As far as I know, that's the only field where the relaxation is ubiquitous. </p>

<p>4) Ortho's...well I think ortho is pretty cool, but there are a lot of medicine people who don't respect orthos. The joke is "If you ask an orthopod to describe the function of the heart, what does he say? It pumps antibiotics to the bone."</p>

<p>Really informative post (as always) bigred. My daughter is thinking medical school (a ways down the road admittedly as she is a college freshman) - I am going to send her links to some of your posts. How does a specialty like pediatric oncology work - do you go through a pediatrics program first then another to specialize in oncology.</p>

<p>"How does a specialty like pediatric oncology work"</p>

<p>Very sadly.....</p>

<p>There are success stories. My best friends baby was diagnosed at three months. Now he is 11 years old. But agreed - a difficult specialty. My daughter has an interest in it but is not sure she can deal with the 'very sadly' aspect. She is 18 so lots of time to decide.</p>

<p>I was asking the question more out of interest as to how the whole specialty/residency process works.</p>

<p>Peds residency followed by a 3-year fellowship. I interviewed w/ a pediatric oncologist from Harvard Med for a position in her lab. As she admitted, it's extremely tough some days, to say the least.</p>

<p>To bigred, keep in mind, specialties like derm and ortho are highly self-selective. Obviously there aren't as many spots. But, I would also say that many med students want to enter these specialties but don't have the credentials and therefore don't apply.</p>

<p>I can still remember telling the parents of my first peds onc patient that their son had died. I can remember exactly what I said and it was in 1986. But yeah, lots more successes then back then. That's what's so hard about choosing a residency. I chose peds because I liked kids. I didn't like luting them or watching them suffer and die. I think neuroscience and human behavior is fascinating; " the new frontier". But people in misery; not so much.</p>

<p>bigredmed - That was an awesome explanation.
It's really .... strange... that I'm thinking THAT far down the line. I'm not even a college freshman, and I'm concerned with medical school/residency programs sometimes. But, I want to make sure my undergraduate school prepares me for the competitive medical school world.</p>

<p>
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It's really .... strange...

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Yes. Yes, it is.</p>

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I want to make sure my undergraduate school prepares me

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You don't need to. It'll be fine.</p>

<p>But I mean, in the sense that it's got a good reputation among medical schools, provides MCAT prep, and has classes that will challenge me and engage me in all departments, but especially in biology/sciences in general.</p>

<p>Granted, the schools that I'm really thinking about (and some I've gotten into already), do all that.</p>

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provides MCAT prep

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</p>

<p>The "pre-med" courses you will take DO NOT teach to the MCAT - they usually go above and beyond or emphasis things that the MCAT does not. In addition, additional knowledge beyond what the MCAT tests can actually hurt you.</p>

<p>MCAT prep does NOT equal pre-med course studying.</p>

<p>So what is the best way to prepare for the MCAT? Prep books like for SAT/ACT.</p>

<p>As an aside - one of my daughters close friends has a brother who is a college senior and planning to be a vet. He was taking a practice GRE at college and Ds friend (a rising freshman at the time) decided to take it also. Both boys are very intelligent. The rising freshman actually did better which was disconcerting for the older brother. But the younger brother did feel that a lot of the tested matter was stuff he had recently covered. The older bro had, of course, covered much more advanced material. I thought that was interesting.</p>

<p>
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good reputation among medical schools

[/quote]
Not a big deal.</p>

<p>
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provides MCAT prep

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Nobody does that.</p>

<p>
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has classes that will challenge me

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This is on balance a good thing, but it has its disadvantages.</p>

<hr>

<p>GRE math, from what I'm told, is actually LESS advanced than SAT math.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Keep telling folks that. I just don't think they are getting it. The MCAT does not test advanced college concepts. Take the tests soon after you finish the coursework covered on the tests, do a review program. Again, not bragging, but D took a practice test from AAMC after freshman year and did well without physics or orgo and made a 31 under test conditions- 8 Physical, 11 Biological, 12 Verbal. That included missing 15 physics q's and 9 organic chemistry q's. )</p>

<p>People understand that you take the AP and SAT Subject tests right after you finish the class, you don't wait until you take 5 classes past it. How many math whizzes blow an algebra q on the SAT or ACT? D did. After Calc she never reviewed anything. It's the same kind of thing. </p>

<p>D will take the MCAT after a review course this summer (after her soph year). She thinks Kaplan. Her last two practice tests have been a good bit higher . She's taking physics and Orgo now and her subscores have improved. Imagine that. ;).</p>

<p>Don't start too early. Don't wait too late. There is a time for everything, and everything has its time.</p>

<p>My daughter found that also on the ACT. She would score perfect on the advanced math section and less well on the some of the basic math sections. Silly mistakes usually. I remember her telling me after one ACT that she completely blanked on how to do percentages - she was in calculus at the time.</p>

<p>Sounds like timing is something she needs to think about for taking the MCATS. After sophomore year sounds ideal. One question - she is contemplating taking 5 (or 4 1/2) years to get her undergrad because she really wants to study abroad and it is almost impossible to meet her degree requirements, med school requirements and do the study abroad in 4 years. If she takes the MCAT after sophomore year but applies to medical school after her 4th year is that ok? </p>

<p>curm - she will also take orgo and physics her soph year. She hates physics - had to do 3 semesters of it at her high school.</p>

<p>1.) MCAT scores are good for three years, so she'd be okay but barely.</p>

<p>2.) Any chance she can go abroad over a summer? (Ideally her first summer, since second is MCAT time and third is application time?)</p>

<p>3.) With that much physics in HS, she might be able to think about not doing it until, say, senior year of college, or that fifth year you were mentioning. She might not need college physics before the MCAT.</p>

<p>Gosh this is all going to be so complicated :rolleyes:</p>

<p>There is a shorter (4 weeks I think) summer program she was thinking about but it would be the summer after her sophomore year - too late already for this summer. Plus she has committed most of her summer break to a construction service project (building & repairing houses for the needy) which is important to her. She would really like the experience of actually living abroad rather the shorter program. She realizes this is probably the one time in her life she will have such an opportunity. But she may have a hard choice to make if it does not work with her long term plans. Something the per med advisor at school can help her with hopefully.</p>

<p>If she follows the 5 year plan it would end up her 2nd summer being MCAT and the 4th being application time. Isn't April when you take MCATS? Or is the fall better with studying over the summer? Is 5 years frowned upon by medical schools? She wants to be able to explore a little - for instance has discovered an English teacher she thinks is wonderful and wants to do some creative writing courses in addition to the English required for her major (a science) - 4 years will not allow for that.</p>

<p>She plans to take physics right before the MCATS despite having already done a lot at school. At her HS (a math/science school) the classes were all college level and she carried a much higher load than she is carrying at college - 7-8 classes usually several of which had labs. She really never felt she had time to really learn and understand each subject thoroughly - it was more a case of trying to keep up. She is doing really well (all As so far) in the actual university classes of subjects she struggled with because she actually has time to study each one. The 17 hours she took 1st semester were less work than she was used to - this semester she has only 15 because she is also involved in a research project. So she wants to take Physics, much as she dislikes it, in an environment where she actually has time to understand it in depth so she can do well on the MCATS. She says most of what she did the last 2 years of high school are a blur.</p>