Sports recruitment... is it fair?

<p>Thursday, May 13, 2004</p>

<p>In admissions, many get 'special' attention </p>

<p>Washington</a> Week . Student Voices | PBS</p>

<p>
[quote]
Athletic admissions statistics are not released by the admissions office. Some speculate that athletes -- particularly those for big sports -- are given the highest preference of all. This does not appear to be the case at Dartmouth, although athletes do benefit from having a lobbyist in their coach. Coaches submit ranked lists of their recruited athletes to the admissions office. The admissions office then reviews the applications, taking into account the applicant's athletic talent and coach's recommendation.</p>

<p>**"Athletic talent works in the same way other kinds of talent do. The only difference is it's a much more organized and structured recruiting process and that's a function of the NCAA and the Ivy League rules," Furstenberg said. "They tell us who they want, but there are no guaranteed number of slots."</p>

<p>But even with the ability to submit a list, some coaches expressed frustration with how little say they really have.</p>

<p>"How much clout do I have? Minimal," men's swimming coach Jim Wilson said. "If you look at my SAT scores and compare to the average SAT scores, my kids may be getting in with a 1450 instead of a 1460."</p>

<p>Wilson did, however, speculate that some of the "higher-profile sports like football may be getting a little more help."</p>

<p>Coaches are given little feedback from the admissions office before submitting their lists, according to Wilson. "I'm shooting blind," he said, adding that other schools, even in the Ivy League, are actually more lenient with athletic admissions.</p>

<p>"Some schools will say 'if he has this GPA and this SAT score were going to let him in.' Our admissions doesn't do that," Wilson said.**</p>

<p>Michele Hernandez '89, who worked in the Dartmouth admissions office in the mid-1990s and is currently a private college counselor, concurred.</p>

<p>"Dartmouth actually has higher standards for athletes than most schools," she said. "Many athletes that are walking straight into Harvard couldn't get into Dartmouth."</p>

<p>**While athletic talent can bolster an application, it does not replace other criteria for admission, **according to Furstenberg. If coaches do not find well qualified applicants to put on their list, they risk not getting enough players that year.</p>

<p>"If the coaches say we need nine soccer players this year, but we only think six of them are qualified, that's what they get," he said. "All of the decisions are made here; the only person at the institution who can admit someone is me."

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</p>

<p>From the Dartmouth Online</p>

<p>Ivy League reconsiders role of athletics in admissions
By Karla Kingsley, The Dartmouth Staff </p>

<p>
[quote]

Recent examination of policies surrounding admissions and athletics have prompted some schools in the New England Small College Athletic Conference to make changes, and Ivy League schools are also considering modifications.</p>

<p>Though Ivy League schools haven't yet made changes, the role that athletics plays in admissions is a persistent topic of discussion.</p>

<p>Both Karl Furstenberg, Dartmouth's dean of admissions, and Jeffrey Orleans, the executive Director of the Ivy League, believe that the Ivies have been doing a good job balancing athletics and academics, but Furstenberg anticipated that changes may come soon.</p>

<p>"We have been working on this for a long time. We aren't perfect, but we know how to do it. We are trying to keep our own house in order ... We think we are walking the right road," Orleans said.</p>

<p>Furstenberg said he could not be sure exactly what changes may be instituted, but he said that administrators were looking at two areas of possible change -- the recruitment and admissions of athletes and the experience athletes have after being admitted.</p>

<p>"They are thinking about ways to be reasonable about the time commitment ... with schedules, practices and travel," Furstenburg said. There is "a lot of discussion about ways of limiting the number of recruited athletes in different sports. Where that [will come] out I honestly don't know. I think there may be some guidance in limiting out-of-season practice and travel."</p>

<p>According to Orleans, "This is not a new issue for us. We have been reviewing these issues and thinking about them for a long time," he said. "The NESCAC are getting organized in a way that they have not been before ... we have been organized in this way for a long time, 25 years."</p>

<p>**All the Ivy League schools do recruit athletes, and according to Karl Furstenberg, "most of the students who are playing most of our varsity sports that seem to be contributing at a high level have probably been recruited."</p>

<p>But Furstenberg emphasized that athletes, recruited or not, have to go through the same admissions process as all other students. He explained that coaches recruit athletes and work with the admissions office to help gauge what each student could bring to the College.</p>

<p>"Having a coach say 'this is a very good athlete' certainly makes a difference on that aspect of the admission ... but [we have to ask] is this student going to take advantage of the school?" Orleans said.</p>

<p>Furstenberg played down the influence coaches have on the admission of a particular athlete.</p>

<p>"Coaches have input into admissions decisions ... but all the decisions are made entirely in the admissions office," he said. "When we evaluate students, the focal point really is on the academic side."**</p>

<p>Administrators compared athletic ability to other extracurricular talents that help students gain admissions. </p>

<p>Tom Parker, Amherst's Dean of Admissions and Financial aid explained that with the current level of applicants, it is possible for elite schools to accept an entire class from the top one-half percent of SAT scores, but that "there are certain populations that just aren't there."</p>

<p>"To what degree are we going to depart from this la-la land of smart kids," Parker wondered, in order to have a diverse student body?</p>

<p>Furstenberg mentioned that in some aspects, athletics compares to other activities in which students participate on campus, but he said athletics is easier to regulate.</p>

<p>At Dartmouth, he said, "there is more demand for your time ... that creates a certain amount of stress. A place like this has to think about those pressures when you add them up -- you guys are busy."</p>

<p>Of the current discussion going on in various forums, Furstenberg said, "Athletics is always being fine-tuned ... this might be a part of that continuing evolution."</p>

<p>The changes made to some NESCAC members' policies are partly a result of internal debates as well as a response to a recently published book, "The Game of Life," by James Shulman and William Bowen.</p>

<p>In the book, authors studied the role of athletics in Ivy League schools, concluding that in many cases the schools placed too much emphasis on athletics, admitting students whose couldn't measure up academically.</p>

<p>**The "little three" of the NESCAC, Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan, decided to make the change simultaneously, reducing the number of "athletic admits" to each school from 96 to 66 over three years, according to Parker.</p>

<p>Parker explained Amherst's motivation for making the change. "We had gone through two swings of the pendulum. First, [there was] an under-emphasis, a lack of attention to athletes. The football program suffered grievously," he said. Then "they came back and over-compensated, taking too many kids that in retrospect should not have been admitted."</p>

<p>Parker explained that although athletic admits are given to students on the basis of athletic ability, these students are still held to high academic standards.</p>

<p>"Their SATs put them in the top six percent of kids going on to college," Parker said.**</p>

<p>Although other NESCAC schools haven't made any changes yet, admissions directors said that the issue is constantly discussed throughout the conference.</p>

<p>"The admissions officers within the NESCAC schools are trying to develop a more common language, trying to be more like one another as we discuss these issues," Middlebury admissions director John Hanson said.</p>

<p>Hanson cited the results of a study that he had done. "I found that the percentage of athletes that were admitted was virtually the same" as non-athletes, he said. "We definitely look at academics first and foremost."

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</p>

<p>And without college sports, I wouldn't be able to learn what I want to learn! Nothing like hands-on clinical experience when it comes to athletic training!</p>

<p>And yes we are useful to those outside of the Athletics relm too!!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I realize some strongly disagree with my views, but I've yet to see any rigorous arguments as to why all athletes shouldn't be held to the same overall admissions standards via the same admissions process as everyone else.

[/quote]
Maybe not rigorous, but applying the same logic prevents Kenyon from balancing gender (they do AA for males), prevents a school filling an orchestra from doing AA for an oboist, prevents a school from admitting their desired number of high school newspaper editors, prevents a school from admitting enough experienced debaters to field a competitive team, etc. It prevents the crafting of classes, which is how some schools maintain their specific culture.</p>

<p>Not a parent of an athlete, so as Curm would say, I don't have a dog in this fight. However, this is march madness (not only for basketball) so over the next couple of days there will be posts regarding athletes, URMs, legacies, purple people and what ever who supposedly took someone's spot and was admitted using a lower standard. This also only becomes an issue at a handful of schools, with students (and their parents) negating the fact that there are close to 4000 colleges and universities in the U.S.</p>

<p>listed below are the recent bowl games and the results of those games:</p>

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia
Utah 35, Navy 32 </p>

<p>R+L Carriers New Orleans Bowl
Florida Atlantic 44, Memphis 27 </p>

<p>Papajohns.com Bowl
Cincinnati 31, Southern Miss 21 </p>

<p>New Mexico
New Mexico 23, Nevada 0 </p>

<p>Pioneer Las Vegas
BYU 17, UCLA 16 </p>

<p>Sheraton Hawaii
East Carolina 41, Boise State 38 </p>

<p>Motor City
Purdue 51, Central Michigan 48 </p>

<p>Pacific Life Holiday
Texas 52, Arizona State 34 </p>

<p>Champs Sports
Boston College 24, Michigan State 21 </p>

<p>Texas
TCU 20, Houston 13 </p>

<p>Emerald
Oregon State 21, Maryland 14 </p>

<p>Meineke Car Care
Wake Forest 24, UConn, 10 </p>

<p>AutoZone Liberty
Mississippi State10, UCF 3 </p>

<p>Valero Alamo
Penn State 24, Texas A&M 17 </p>

<p>PetroSun Independence
Alabama 30, Colorado 24 </p>

<p>Bell Helicopter Armed Forces
California 42, Air Force 36 </p>

<p>Roady's Humanitarian
Fresno State 40, Georgia Tech 28 </p>

<p>Brut Sun
Oregon 56, South Florida 21 </p>

<p>Gaylord Hotels Music City
Kentucky 35, Florida State 28 </p>

<p>Insight
Oklahoma State 49, Indiana 33 </p>

<p>Chick-fil-A
Auburn 23, Clemson 20 (OT) </p>

<p>Outback
Tennessee 21, Wisconsin 17 </p>

<p>AT&T Cotton
Missouri 38, Arkansas 7 </p>

<p>Konica Minolta Gator
Texas Tech 31, Virginia 28 </p>

<p>Capital One
Michigan 41, Florida 35 </p>

<p>Rose Bowl presented by Citi
USC 49, Illinois 17 </p>

<p>Allstate Sugar
Georgia 41, Hawaii 10 </p>

<p>Tostitos Fiesta
West Virginia 48, Oklahoma 28 </p>

<p>FedEx Orange
Kansas 24, Virginia Tech 21 </p>

<p>International
Rutgers 52, Ball State 30 </p>

<p>GMAC
Tulsa 63, Bowling Green 7 </p>

<p>Allstate BCS Championship Game
LSU 38, Ohio State 24 </p>

<p>ESPN</a> - 2007-08 Bowl schedule - College Football</p>

<p>

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<p>It is safe to say that if anyone is going to leave school and go to the professional, the chances are greater for a player coming out of one of these football powerhouse schools.</p>

<p>Where is the outrage that footbal player was admitted with "lower academic standards" at Florida Atlantic, Tulsa 63, Alabama, Clemson , Auburn and any other school listed. I am quite sure that all of them have given their student base a great education (if it was the student's desire to obtain one). </p>

<p>However, this is only an issue with HYPS other ivies + name your "elite school". With the exception of Stanford & Duke (who has already been bounced from the big dance this year), how many of these schools could remotely be considered football or basketball powerhouses? Yeah, the whole Harvard/ Yale team (while a good rivalry for the alums) are not going pro however the vast majority of them will graduate.</p>

<p>Just throwing it out there. Are we talking about sports recruiting at all schools or just a select (emphasis on select) few?</p>

<p>Going back to the OP's original post, I don't think you can compare the sports recruitment practices in the US with the admissions practices of Oxford and Cambridge. As a student at Oxford, I can say, absolutely unequivocally, that they are NOT trying to create a well-rounded class of students with diverse interests. That is simply not a goal in their admissions policies. </p>

<p>At Oxford the goal is to gather together a community of people who are enthusiastic and dedicated about their degree subjects. That's all. The fact that many people have outside interests is totally irrelevant - the admissions tutors will most likely not even know about them, because the application does not ask for details about ECs. </p>

<p>Universities in the UK have a different mission to universities in the US, and admissions practices are therefore different. It's comparing apples and oranges.</p>

<p>I think for a lot of folks when sports are mentioned it is assumed it is football or basketball (revenue sports). However, there are many other sports that are available at colleges and are recruited. These student very often have profiles that are equivalent to the student who get in without sports, so there is no reduction in quality of the student body through this process. And sometime earlier this year someone posted on another forum that Stanford's football team had a fairly large number of NMS on it.</p>

<p>"I didn't observe that any such assumptions were made, in fact I think he made it clear that he strongly supports a well rounded view of admissions that looks at all aspects and talents on ones application including not just academics. His point was that he opposes the idea that a school has one set of standards for what 'well rounded application' means for someone they recruit to play on a team and another set of standards for a 'well rounded application' for everyone else. Everyone should go through the same admissions process. I fail to see why some people are so strongly oppose to that simple idea."</p>

<p>This is where we need to differentiate between well rounded individuals and well rounded classes. Again, many prestigious US universities are looking for a well rounded class, but love applicants that have a passion. We have heard that time and time again. Applicants with a passion for a sport that is strong enough to make them a competive Division I athlete is pretty impressive, just as applicant with some other passion that make them nationally recognized. Think of it as a point system. Admittees need 100 points. Perfect test scores and GPA get 80 points, 2100 SATs and 4.0 get 60. Internationally recognized talents and passions get 80 points, while those known nationally in their field get 60. (There are very few recruited athletes that are not known nationally in their field.) In either case you need something else to get you in, but its certainly a head start.</p>

<p>I think for a lot of folks when sports are mentioned it is assumed it is football or basketball (revenue sports). However, there are many other sports that are available at colleges and are recruited. These student very often have profiles that are equivalent to the student who get in without sports, so there is no reduction in quality of the student body through this process. And sometime earlier this year someone posted on another forum that Stanford's football team had a fairly large number of NMS on it.</p>

<p>Before anyone else suggests that I just pack up and leave the country I must confess that I am intentionally playing devils advocate a bit here and trying to wind some folks up to see the variety of arguments that are brought forth. If you read my original post you can see I was just trying to get a debate and discussion of ideas going so people can stop suggesting that I'm just some sort of idiot naive wacko who should just move abroad ;-). I often do get into heated debates with folks on both sides of this issue so I was trying to see what new arguments people would bring forward to support the American model of admissions. </p>

<p>My own personal view (the real one now) is that yes it is all about a well rounded picture and I like the '100 points' example that was made. As mentioned the Oxbridge admission system is purely focused on academic and intellectual brilliance although I do still find it very interesting that sports still plays a huge role in these schools even without making it a specific part of the admissions process. My only main serious criticism of the US system is when the academic side of things is simply not taken seriously at all and the individual is there simply to play sports for a few years before trying to turn pro (this practice is essentially isolated to some D1 schools and mainly with football and basketball). In those limited cases I do have a big problem with it because colleges aren't there purely to serve as farm teams for the pros with recruits that never graduate. However the vast majority of college athletes are far more rounded and recognize that they are there first and foremost to get a degree.</p>

<p>It appears that recruitment is even an issue in the famous Oxford/Cambridge Boat Race.</p>

<p>"Are there too many foreign oarsmen in the Boat Race?</p>

<p>Wednesday March 29, 2006
The Guardian</p>

<p>Tim Foster Olympic gold medallist, Oxford Blue 1997</p>

<p>Yes</p>

<p>There is a real debate to be had about the balance of the two Boat Race crews race this year. The numbers tell their own story: there will be five British rowers competing and 11 from Germany, North America, Australia and France. My question is this: "What effect does that have on young British hopefuls at Oxford or Cambridge who are trying to break into the Boat Race squads?"</p>

<p>Let's be clear, there always will be a place for internationals and foreign students in the Boat Race - that has always been part of the event's tradition. It is a wonderful event for any rower to compete in. But as a supporter of British rowing, I feel it is a shame that not enough up-and-coming British rowers are being given this opportunity. This is especially true when, with the 2012 Olympics being held in London, we need more British talent than ever to come through to international level.</p>

<p>Of course it's easy to see the reasons for such recruitment of foreign rowers and I would not blame the universities themselves. They live in a highly competitive world and they have to compete to win, and that does involve recruiting the best talent from around the world.</p>

<p>Major sponsorship and two competitive, top-class programmes have helped create this imbalance, but there is a wider picture: the fact that each university loses £3,000 a year on every English undergraduate only increases the pressure for both institutions to create courses that are more profitable and in turn, appeal to many of the international rowers who come to race.</p>

<p>I can look at my own experience. Our crew was a mixture of talents, with five undergraduate rowers. I was a postgraduate at Oxford in 1997 but in my crew that year there were three British rowers who went on to win a gold medal at the Sydney Olympics. It is a crucial model to follow if the development of rowing in this country is to really prosper, as it can.</p>

<p>This debate is taking part in a wider context and I'm sure that many of those who watch the race on Sunday will relate the issue to the recent arguments about the composition of football teams like Arsenal and Chelsea. It's right that there is a national debate about how to achieve the right mix for British sports teams.</p>

<p>It's a debate for which there are no easy answers, though. I would not wish to be anything but proud of the Boat Race and the way it has always reflected the wider world, whoever competes. But in a race where Oxford's young Robin Ejsmond-Frey is the only British rower from both sides who isn't already a full international, it's right to pause and question if the current balance is working.</p>

<p>One thing is certain: it will be great contest this Sunday. These are two fantastic, top-quality crews. Both would put in strong showings in the final of world championship events and I'm sure the battle on the Thames will be an epic. But I hope, in the long run, that the race can find more room for young British talent.</p>

<p>Tim Foster is commentating on the 152nd Boat Race; coverage starts on ITV1 at 3.30pm on Sunday</p>

<p>Barney Williams Olympic silver medallist, Oxford Blue 2005</p>

<p>No</p>

<p>I love the Boat Race and the experience of competing in this unique event has been life-changing and pivotal in my career as a sportsman and as an academic. I don't think the race has ever been designed for British rowers. It's there for the students who are at Oxford and Cambridge universities, no matter where they come from.</p>

<p>Both universities have always been about producing excellence, not just in an academic but also in a sporting environment. The current make-up of the crews is a reflection of the need that Oxford and Cambridge have to pursue that excellence. Both universities have to survive in an increasingly competitive academic world, so naturally they want to attract the best students.</p>

<p>I know how crucial marketing is from my own experiences of the millions of dollars which business schools in North America spend on it. Well, for Oxford and Cambridge the Boat Race is one of the most effective marketing tools they have. In fact it was the stories I heard from former Blues about this amazing contest that led me to take the "once in a lifetime" chance to compete in the race when it was offered.</p>

<p>I'm sure that those who watch the Boat Race don't want to see a race with just British rowers if they are not also the best rowers that are currently available. They want to see a great contest and in the past few years there have been some fantastic races produced by so much talent.</p>

<p>Let's not forget that London can decide if it really does want to turn its attention towards the Tideway on a Sunday afternoon. They have an abundance of choices: football, rugby and formula one. I'm a sports fan but one reason I'll watch the Boat Race is the intensity and high standard of the competition that it brings.</p>

<p>Of course the availability of television sponsorship has meant that both universities have tried to raise the bar of their performances and that has meant looking for the best students around. But let's be clear. These men are at Oxbridge not because of money, or sporting potential, but because they are fantastically gifted student athletes. For example, we have doctors taking a year out to do cutting-edge research, row in a fantastic race and then return to their hospitals.</p>

<p>What would happen if one of the universities decided to turn the clock back and have only undergraduates, or non-internationals? They would be well beaten. It's not going to happen.</p>

<p>I think there is a strong British presence in the race. Five of the 16 rowers this year are British and I know the coaches are keen to appeal to more British athletes. The standard of British rowers is increasing at grassroots level and that will filter through.</p>

<p>I suppose the danger is that if you start recruiting actively then you might get a lot of people on one-year courses who don't appreciate the tremendous tradition and integrity behind the Boat Race. But with Sean Bowden as coach and with people like Dan Topolski around, it's my feeling that whether or not the rowers are British they will take the history of this race very seriously indeed."</p>

<p>A relative by marriage was the stroke of the Harvard crew, and subsequently spent a year at Oxford during which he was the stroke of the Oxford crew. They won Henley. I doubt very much that he was "recruited." He also rowed in the Olympics. But that was during the Dark Ages, of course.</p>

<p>Consolation: Not so much the dark ages, but I bet back then top universities didn't reject entire class-worths of valedictorians, and stuff like that.</p>

<p>He was, IIRC, the val at his top drawer NE prep school, so he was a shoo-in for H anyway especially then but even now. But it was Oxford that I meant did not recruit him, to my knowledge.</p>

<p>But yes, you are correct.</p>