<p>My S, a junior, is really into philosophy and is thinking about majoring in it, perhaps followed by law school or even business school. He wants to go to a small LAC, although his definition of small is "not huge", so that leaves it wide open. </p>
<p>He heard about St. John's College and researched it on their website and is now really in love with the whole idea of the Great Books curriculum and the small seminar-style classes and lectures. I've read all about the curriculum, I've watched the videos on the website and was impressed with the enthusiasm shown by the students there. It sounds like a perfect fit for him in so many ways. But I guess I'm worried that it's so untraditional -- will he be as "prepared' after graduation as those who attended a regular college? I know St. John's will teach him how to think, but I just have to wonder how much math and science he will learn by reading Euclid and Galileo. And two years each of ancient Greek and French are interesting, but wouldn't he be better served by attaining fluency in a modern language? </p>
<p>We're planning a spring visit to colleges in VA, NC, and DC, so we will add a stop in Annapolis so that he can do an overnight and attend some classes. I guess I just need reassurance from you wise parents that he wouldn't be making a mistake by forgoing the more traditional experience. If he changes his mind about law school and decides to go into the job market right after graduation, would employers feel that he was as valuable a candidate as a conventional LAC or uni graduate? Am I worrying for nothing?</p>
<p>A lot of places are looking for people who have the ability to think, which St. John's undoubtedly teaches one to do. Nevertheless, a boy can change dramatically over four years, and he may find himself in love with a subject that St. John's wouldn't be able to adaquately teach.</p>
<p>There are tons of Great Books programs and other strong core programs in more traditional LACs that would allow him to pursue this unique background while allowing him to delve into a variety of subjects. Look at Columbia, University of Chicago, Notre Dame, UCSD, and I'm sure that there are more that I'm not familiar with. Columbia and U of C both have very strong core curriculi; Columbia's especially has a Great Book focus. The other two schools both, I believe, have special Great Book programs for interested/qualified students.</p>
<p>I was just looking at the St. John's website! It's one my S is interested in. I think it seems like a wonderful program. But I'm kind of a non-traditionalist :p</p>
<p>St Johns campus is REALLLLLLY small. Quaint, beautiful, but small. I don't know anything about the curriculum though - just the size of the school.</p>
<p>That's exactly what I'm thinking - that he might change drastically and realize that he made the wrong choice.</p>
<p>Thanks for the suggestions of other schools. Columbia wouldn't appeal to him and I don't think he'll have the stats to get into a UChicago. Notre Dame is a possibility, I guess. SAT and ACT will be taken later this year and he hasn't gotten the PSAT results yet. He has a 4.1 weighted GPA with honors and APs, but makes his share of B's.</p>
<p>I love St. John's College and think it truly offers the academic experience most other colleges only profess to offer. Prof - student relationships appear genuinely close and congenial, campus events such as dancing in the great hall, crew races, and the yearly croquet match against Navy are wonderful. Annapolis, too, is a wonderful college town - with great art galleries and restaurants, the water, good walking, biking, and sailing...The students with whom I've spoken
are a genuinely unpretentious, down-to-earth lot - no prada bag, pink popped collar polo set (thank goodness...)</p>
<p>The school is small but you can always do an exchange with the Santa Fe campus one year. I really think it is one of the hidden gems in the US college scene.</p>
<p>I agree with you, but I still have the concerns I mentioned in my original post. Will he learn what he needs to learn to compete? Will employers respect his liberal arts degree? Will he be prepared for business school if that's what he decides to do?</p>
<p>No worries. He will "compete" easily with students from any college in the US - even the most highly regarded colleges do not have a four-year core based on close reading and analysis of original texts, and none of them place as high a premium on verbal "run the gauntlet of all objections" argument. So much so, in fact, that it is NOT ideal for those who place a high value on a "balanced life" - it attracts the serious student who revels in the life of the mind and desires to traverse the history of western thought for four years, study a dead language for two years, and prove that the sun revolves around the earth for a whole semester. The individual with a scholarly bent. </p>
<p>There are well respected philosophy and humanities professors that started at St. John's (they are ranked high among LACs in producing PhDs) and law school would be a natural (not in terms of workload - hard for everyone - but in terms of concepts, argument, definition, premises, interpretation, etc.). Business school, even easier, as long as he has the instrinsic "business sense" - born not made, in my opinion. Graduate programs in philosophy, in particular, would welcome his application. St. John's is sometimes referred to as the "college's college" and its reputation in academe is much stronger than with the general public. </p>
<p>It is also not for those with aspirations in contemporary math, sciences, or pre-med - students would have to take remedial pre-requisites if they go that route after the BA, adding time and cost to the degree.</p>
<p>I love St. John's College. But why not put your questions to the College itself? They no doubt have faced them in the past and should be able to offer some reassurance to you.</p>
<p>We will do just that on our visit next spring. I was just looking to tap some of the wisdom of the CC parents who may have faced the same dilemma.</p>
<p>This all may be a moot point by then if his interests change as much as I suspect they will!</p>
<p>patsmom-
I wouldn't worry about the relevance of a St. John's education. I've forgotten most of what I memorized for every exam as an undergraduate and in 25 years the science that was up-to-date then is obsolete now. I think the foundations and connections between disciplines that you get at St. John's are so much more valuable than learning the latest thing now. I think it's a gift that I believe Yulsie once said she appreciates more each year. Also, the overnight prospective visit is SO important. I really think your son will know then if its what he's looking for and what he thought it would be. By the way, the movies are brand new and 4 members of the film crew were so impressed with St. John's that they enrolled in the graduate program.</p>
<p>The professor who helped my son in his college decisions went to Brown but wishes he had gone to St. John's. An excellent choice for deep thinkers. Good to keep other options open, but there is no doubt this is a good one!</p>
<p>DD came extremely close to choosing St. Johns, and I know, deep down, there will always be some part of her that will regret the decision (there's always the grad program!). I would not worry about the relevance of the curriculum; I found the students at SJC to be the most articulate, well-mannered and thoughtful students of any schools we visited. They have a certain quality that I'm not sure you could gain elsewhere, and I think they are very well respected and would be an asset to many grad programs. I also think it is great how they interact with each other--so polite and willing to listen as well as to articulate their own thoughts. I would welcome that style of discourse in many a frustrating meeting myself!</p>
<p>That being said, your son will know after the overnight visit (make sure he does the 2-day one) whether it is the right place for him. The SJC visiting program is extremely well-done and thorough. Good luck.</p>
<p>We don't live far from St. John's, and I have met some former Johnnies. They are very bright, articulate people. If you talk to ST. John's admissions, they will tell you that their students get into top grad schools and professional schools. I honestly don't doubt the quality of their education. </p>
<p>That said, however, if your son wishes to get a PHD in Philosophy, I would go elsewhere. The reason is that attending St John's is the eqivalent of getting a duel major in both classics and ancient philosophy. If your child wants to get a PHD in Philosophy, they might be getting too narrow an education in that area. Surprisingly, based on a grad school ranking that I have seen, NYU, to my surprise, was ranked number one in Philosophy. </p>
<p>However, if your child's goal is not to get a PHD in Philosophy then St. John's, in my opinion, will provide your kid with a terrific education and maybe better than most of your traditional LACs.</p>
<p>My S isn't interested in a PhD in philosophy. He says he'd like to go to law school. He has also considered a minor in business, then an MBA later on. But he's 16, what does he know? I just want him to be ready for whatever comes his way.</p>
<p>Patsmom, I believe that St. John's would be a great training ground for law school because of its emphasis on critical thinking and writing, not to mention its emphasis on oral presentations. The same can be said for MBA. Realize that it is a very small school! Annapolis is a terrific, safe area for students,but the school itself has a relatatively small enrollment. You son must really be interested in learning for learning sake, and not be too concerned with the limited social interactions.</p>
<p>Taxguy's post above about the small size is a good area for your son to think about when he visits. The way I thought about it was "you have to face your ex-boyfriend in the dining hall every morning." You don't tend to meet the Middies, other than at the croquet game. </p>
<p>The other students become exactly like an extended family - some you really like, others you don't, and you have to cope, just as if you were working at a small company. You earn the respect of other students through your performance in seminars and classes, and the prevailing culture forces everyone to keep on their toes, since the entire community values discourse and inquiry. </p>
<p>Also, if a student favors particular subjects (e.g., philosophy, literature, history) over others (e.g., languages, science, math) it is important to truly understand the implications of continuing with all subjects for four years. That realization usually takes a while to sink in.</p>
<p>I think the small size is part of what he likes about it. He has always attended small schools -- the average class size in his elementary/middle school was about 14-15 and there were less than 150 kids in the whole school. His parochial HS has less than 900 kids. He feels more comfortable in a smaller setting for some reason. </p>
<p>Good point, though, about the requirement to study all subjects for all 4 years. He would have to be very sure that was what he wanted.</p>