We are now at the point where D21’s best options in the US are Denison and St Olaf. Both are affordable but Denison is a little more generous. I think we have eliminated Lawrence because it seems too small and doesn’t offer anything that the other two don’t have. She has some other options that are from LACs that are higher ranked but we have eliminated them as they wood all be full pay or very small merit scholarships. We have decided that it doesn’t make sense to be full pay at a LAC as it would reduce our ability to assist with grad school and she may want to do a 3+2 engineering or engineering masters.
From what I can make out the two colleges both will have good and engaged professors, lots of extracurriculars, and nice campuses with nice facilities. I know Denison is more selective but wonder if that is a lot to do with Denison being closer to the east coast and more on peoples’ radars because of the cluster of similar LACs in Ohio?
What can CC tell me about the different cultures of Denison and St Olaf and the sorts of students that attend and the experience each school offers? We are particularly interested if anyone know about choir at Denison (we know choir at St Olaf is amazing). We are also interested in how each college has managed COVID and what the experience is likely to be in that regard this fall.
My daughter’s main extracurricular to date has been choir as well as outdoors activities. She is a light social drinker (legal drinking age is 18 where we live so she has been able to go with friends to the pub/bars for occasional drinks since she turned 18 six months ago). She is a confident and resilient girl who is well prepared for University (full IB score 37; SAT 1420). She would be coming from NZ but has a grown up brother living in the US (NYC).
She has other options in Canada which we are also considering but we are aware that is a different experience and want to work out which US option is best before weighing up Canada.
Thanks in advance!
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calling @tkoparent, who is current parent of a Denison student who grew up overseas, IB diploma and who has shared very good feedback on how Denison has managed covid this year. My Denison student graduated last spring, so I only see general info and what is happening in the FB parents group – where parents generally say they are very pleased with the on-campus experience this year, including for 1st years. Infection rates are low, winter and spring sports are competing, and there is lots of creativity in terms of things to do on campus.
Broadly, I would describe Denison students as super-involved in lots of different activities and there is a strong focus on connecting across difference, so that students don’t just operate within their own “pods.” Music and performing arts are very strong, the Vail Series and Tutti Festival bring incredible talent to campus and the music faculty is enhanced by professional musicians from Columbus area who give lessons and teach class as adjuncts.
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Sorry that I can’t help with your question about campus cultures, but Denison’s location makes it LOTS more accessible to NYC than St. Olaf. Being so far from home and with a brother in NYC, this would be an important consideration for me if I were in your shoes.
St. Olaf is close to a major airport, MSP. It’s 45 minutes away, and Denison is about the same distance away from Columbus airport, but Columbus will have far fewer flights.
St. Olaf is a CC favorite and in the seven years I’ve been on this site, people consistently rave about it. People also say good things about Denison, but I get the sense it’s not quite as highly regarded as St. Olaf. Denison appears to be up and coming though.
Have a look at the website Niche, which will give you a good idea of how students feeI about their schools. I confess I have no experience of either school. I will tag @MYOS1634 who will probably have good insight.
No argument here. I’m just saying that Denison is much closer to NYC, which can reasonably be reached by bus in addition to air.
I can’t answer your question about Denison’s choir, but perhaps you could try contacting the director of the Concert Choir - Harris Ipock | Faculty & Staff | Denison University It looks like an interesting choir, with participants from both the Denison community and the local community, although I am not sure whether that is something you are looking for. As @Midwestmomofboys mentioned, my S19 is a sophomore at Denison. He grew up in Asia and attended international schools, graduating with an IB Diploma. He also applied to and was accepted at St. Olaf, although in the end we did not visit St. Olaf. It was to have been the last stop on our last college tour, but once he saw Denison, he called it quits on any further campus visits. Denison had offered him more money than St. Olaf and was an obviously good fit, so we didn’t push it. In putting together his list, we had been focused on LACs with excellent academics, strong athletics and an active arts program (theater in his case). We were also looking for reasonable proximity to direct international flights. St. Olaf would have been a bit better from that perspective, as there are direct flights from Minneapolis-St. Paul, but flying through Columbus (30 min. from campus) has worked out fine. Denison has handled Covid very well. It helps that the school is located in a very small town, but they have also benefited from the students’ cooperation in wearing masks and maintaining social distancing. Denison’s president, Adam Weinberg, has been an effective leader, and he has the respect of the students. The school has been surveying the students frequently about their experience during this period and has been thoughtful and creative in responding - there are large heated tents that can be used both for classes and social gatherings, fire pits, an ice skating rink, etc. Last semester started mostly remote or hybrid, but at this point, all of my son’s classes are face to face. Athletic competitions and arts performances are also back, although in a modified format that keeps people safe. All told, there have been very few cases on campus, and a robust quarantine policy has stopped those cases from spreading. At the moment, the school is very focused on getting everybody vaccinated. My son had his first shot a few weeks ago and is waiting for the second to be scheduled.
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If you consider US News as reflecting general perceptions about the tier of schools which any particular school falls into, St Olaf is ranked 67, Denison 44, St Olaf has about 48% acceptance rate, Denison 28%. Denison pulls heavily from east coast – Boston to DC/NoVA as well as North Carolina, plus Chicago and west coast. Flights in and out of Columbus are easy, it is 25 min from campus, with non-stop flights to major markets.
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Academic-> Denison (It was included as one of the 63 hidden ivies, a list where colleges are examined based on academics, admissions process, financial aid, and student experiences. The others colleges in the midwest that were also included are
Carleton College
Case Western Reserve University
Grinnell College
Kenyon College
Macalester College
Northwestern University
Oberlin College
University of Chicago
University of Notre Dame
Washington University in St. Louis)
Choir-> St Olaf
Alcohol-> Denison (i mean cmn… this is what Denison known for, and St Olaf’s campus is dry)
Price → Denison (cheaper)
Location → (MN or OH) (Granville or Northfield)
Religious Affiliation → (St Olaf has it, but does it matter to you)
Professors → (Is there any specific professor you like, or which “MAJOR OF STUDY” department is stronger. Do your research)
Resources → (Internal scholarship opportunities, facilities, studey abroad programs, internship programs, career service…)
.
.
.
.
etc
Couple points based on my experiences with these two colleges. The administration staff at Denison are really better than those at St. Olaf, they are patient, kind, and responsive. I was in the group chat with students from each school, St. Olaf gives me a sense of more passionate student body, but somewhat less intellectual, and most of them seem to into music.
Just put down a list as I done above, figure it out what matters, which is better in that catogory, and decide what is most important to you, your family, or overall which school gets the most points. It would probably make the whole process more easier than it seems. Good luck!
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Do you mind to elaborate more on this? or it’s just a purely subjective opinion.
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Just my general thought after years here on CC reading many enthusiastic opinions by other users. But as I also said, I think Denison is up and coming. My own kid considered Denison at one point. They are both good schools.
ETA: @JayGatsby3 I can say for sure that in the last few years I have been hearing much more about Denison, which is always a good thing.
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It’s still a pretty anecdotal-based statement, which I wouldn’t dismiss but wouldn’t fully trusted either. The only thing I would say St. Olaf is evidently more highly regarded than Denison is their quality of student life(Qualities of food, and Dorm rooms), other than that, you could pretty much tell from the numbers.
St Olaf has an excellent academic reputation because it has fields of great excellence, for instance it is nationally-known (math, in particular, in addition to music, but also the sciences in general where they have a partnership with the Mayo clinic, Classics or Languages in general…), an international orientation with a lot of study abroad programs of varying length and a majority of students studying abroad as early as sophomore year, and the “Conversations”, cohesive programs for cohorts focusing on various issues: American conversation, Asian conversation, Great conversation (“great books”), Environmental conversation, Science conversation. Those are “harkness table” type seminars with close reading of primary sources and discussions. The career center is very good, offers something for everyone including arts&humanities students, and provides stipends to help with unpaid internships. They’re also very reactive: for instance, seeing demand in Finance from both students and recruiters, they’ve created a “fast track” so students can engage in finance internships as early as sophomore year. It has slipped in ratings because it doesn’t have many Pell grant recipients - most students are middle and upper middle class and the latest USNWR increased the weight of that factor. With many Indian American (India) and Hmong kids now considering it fully, there is roughly the same percentage of international students, Asian, and Hispanic students. The vibe is wholesome, well-adjusted, happy kids with a musical bent (overall).
(St Olaf: 8% are 1%ers, 16% have families making 65K or less; Denison: 9% are 1%ers, 19% have families making 65K or less; for comparison, Carleton has 15% 1%ers and 15% making 65K or less, Kenyon has 20% 1%ers and 12% making 65K or less.)
Denison is more “jocky”, with THE big sport being swimming. Although it’s D3, it’s like D1 when it comes to swimming 
It’s got an excellent career center. Programs are strong across the board but the reason it’s not as highly praised as St Olaf on these boards is that it doesn’t have areas for which it’s nationally-known. When it comes to drinking, it was a huge problem 10-15 years ago, but they’ve cleaned up and taken measures to make sure it’s no longer the major problem it used to be*. In that same time period, it’s tried to open up to more socio-economic diversity and create an inclusive community. In terms of ethnic diversity, it’s got a similar percentage of international students, fewer Asian students, more African American students.
*There’s drinking on all college campuses. It may be easier to avoid at St Olaf but it shouldn’t be the differentiator it’d have been 10 years ago.
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St. Olaf has a very good pre-med program and carries the „Minnesota nice“ factor which is always worth a lot. Also, no Greek system.
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Thanks very much for that specific information. Much appreciated.
Thanks very much for the helpful reply.
Thanks that all very helpful. We aren’t specifically seeking a religious affiliation as my daughter would be described as atheist/agnostic. However I think are fine with a religious affiliation if it brings a note engaged has “nicer” vibe and and long as it is tolerant (ie non judgemental and accepting of LGBTQI etc).
Thanks particularly for the socio-ecomoc stats. That helps convey a picture. One of the things that worried me a bit about W&L was the wealth and lack of racial diversity.
I purchased on online copy of Fiske (2020 version) today and was interested to see that Fiske gives St Olaf and Lawrence 4 pens for academics vs 3 and a half for Denison. That is interesting as is runs counter to Denison having greater selectivity (but as I said earlier I thought that might be more to do with relative proximity to East Coast and being well known on the East Coast). Any thoughts on the Fiske rating @Lindagaf @JayGatsby3 ? Do you consider the Fiske book to be a good resources?
Yes, I do believe Fiske guide is a great place to look up for insights, but I haven’t had a chance to read one yet, so I’m not sure how to give an opinion based on that. Do you happen to know anyone who has a 2021 version Fiske guide, I wonder it they are the same in the newer version.