<p>This was a fafsa only school. I called the financial aid office to confirm that each school had access to the SAR. He was offered an unsubsidized Stafford. Do you have to complete the fafsa to be offered this? They definitely had the SAR. It is water under the bridge, but I wanted to understand this whole thing for son #2. Also, I can tell you that I know of another young man who was accepted this school too (accepted last year as well). He had a sibling at a private college, and there was definitely need. He got exactly the same financial aid package that my son received, which was nothing.</p>
<p>Northeastmom - thank you for the research....so helful and you are not alone!</p>
<p>It is interesting that you really can't tell what number the FA office is using as your S's unmet need (COA - EFC). If you look at what you're given, one would have to presume your EFC was $28K...why else would the offer have been an Unsubsidized loan instead of subsidized?</p>
<p>This example is especially helpful because it is not complicated by other scholarships, grants, work study etc. </p>
<p>If this had been your only FA offer you might never have wondered. If you are like my D - it wan't until I compared the stingy offer with the FA awards from half-dozen same/similar COA schools that I would say "why didn't they AT LEAST offer her a Stafford loan...the other four-five schools did?" Even the school that offered the largest merit scholarship topped off the offer with an Unsubsidized Stafford, a Perkins, and Work Study until they closed up the "unmet need gap" to near $0.... Very much like the methodology that NikkilL defined where the federal loans are added last and only if/when there is still unmet need.</p>
<p>But if the student with a really low $EFC gets a FA award like the one you cited...from an expensive school... you can only ask yourself "what are they thinking?...what number or methodology can they possible be using?" </p>
<p>You can imagine how we reacted when a school that cost almost $10K more, offered only a $3500 Subsidized loan. (as a sophmore).</p>
<p>You can also understand why I originally assumed that Federal loans were just another part of the recruiter's ** AWARD ** system....meaning, if you were a top student and they really wanted you....then you would be awarded the federal loans on top of the scholarhips and grants until they closed the "need gap" right up to $0. </p>
<p>And if you were a normal average student in the admission pool...then you got just the government loans.</p>
<p>But if you were so-so, good enough to get into the top $ private LAC, but they didn't especially want you for anything...then you get no financial aid awarded ..or a small partial Stafford/Perkins or only the Pell grant. Maybe even $0. No incentives, you can attend if you can pay.</p>
<p>However, all the posters above who seem to know what they are talking about say IT ISN"T SO.....that schools will ALWAYS give the student the maximum federal loans that they are eligible for. If you get a unexplainably low FA award, there must be some kind of mistake.</p>
<p>But the inconsistencies don't make sense because it is no skin-off-the schools-back to offer the federal loans to anyone and everyone who is eligible. Unless the school knows you can't possibly afford the school even with federal aid and so they just don't bother...but that wouldn't be ethical I suspect.</p>
<p>Then you would have to call the college and ask. </p>
<p>If everything you say is true, then the college is not following the law. I prefer to think there are probably mistakes along the way. </p>
<p>I also feel at this point it is isn't worth any more of my effort -- at this point we are going around in circles. Remember my analogy about the speed limit above? I keep saying that the posted speed limit is 55, and you keep telling me over and over again that you have seen cars going 80. </p>
<p>No one ever said that all the colleges are doing things right all of the time. I have no idea what university gave your son that non-award or what they did to figure it out... but I know that if your son's FAFSA EFC was less than the cost of attendance then he would have been eligible for a subsidized loan, whether or not it was listed in the award he was offered.</p>
<p>Maybe the college in question has some sort of kickback arrangement with its lenders and they get more money when they can trick ignorant students into signing up for unsubsidized loans. I mean -- that's a pretty strong accusation for me to make but....er.... I seem to remember some officials at some high class universities losing their jobs a few months ago over funny arrangements they had with private lenders. </p>
<p>So I believe you. Your son and your friend's son applied to some out of state university with an incompetent and corrupt financial aid office that didn't bother to retrieve or enter SAR data into the calculation before sending off a form letter which offered no aid whatsoever. </p>
<p>That doesn't change the rules that apply for kids who attend colleges where the financial aid offices are capable and honest. Nor does it change the fact that anyone who feels they haven't gotten what they are entitled in a financial aid should follow up with an appropriate inquiry.</p>
<p>Calmom, you have done as a job as anyone I have read to try to explain this system. Thank you for your efforts. I have learned from this thread. That is really what is important to me, as I go intot the trenches with son #2. I am now armed with some more knowledge.</p>
<p>ahoo2u, it is quite interesting, isn't it?</p>
<p>
[quote]
you can't assume that an award was premised on full information if you didn't ask
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In my D case, I did ask - but I never learned what the mistake or rationale was. They just awarded the Stafford loans.</p>
<p>
No, I didn't quite say that --if Northeastmom's son's school had offered $4000 of work study, then that might have been enough to render him ineligible for loans. Another college might fill the gap with grants. You have to have "need" in order to be eligible -- but the colleges can only meet need with grants, scholarship, work-study, Perkins loans, etc. -- they can't fill the gap with an unsubsidized loan.</p>
<p>Way back in post #3 NikkiL explained some of the considerations going in, and said that you can always ask the school for their COA & EFC numbers. Northeastmom obviously didn't do that, so we can't say where the problem was. Producing more evidence of college financial aid offices making mistakes doesn't really change the answer to the initial question -- which isn't, "are college financial aid offices perfect?", but rather -- "if there is unmet need, is the student eligible for a subsidized stafford loan even if that is not specified in the award letter?" The answer to the first question is "no, definitely not." -- the answer to the second is "yes - but you can't assume the college is working with the same numbers you are until you ask them."</p>
<p>I have also learned so much, and forgive me if I remain skeptical. </p>
<p>I really DO believe the overwhelming number of financial aid counselors are doing a GREAT job in a complex financial and regulated environment. I don't think I would want their job. </p>
<p>I just believe that the FA award system is a very opaque system...the numbers and methods the schools are using are NOT out in the open. So it is extremely hard to detect mistakes or awards made on incomplete information or whatever. </p>
<p>But it definate worth it to ** ASK **</p>
<p>ahoo2u - it sounds like the financial aid office at your daughter's school is pretty tough to deal with. They aren't all like that. As far as I recall, every one of my kids' financial aid awards from various colleges told us the COA figure. The EFC could be ascertained from the SAR -- but as I've noted, the college could be anticipating making corrections.</p>
<p>The Financial Aid letter site has examples of award letters showing cost of attendance here:
<a href="http://www.financialaidletter.com/ucdavis.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.financialaidletter.com/ucdavis.php</a>
<a href="http://www.financialaidletter.com/arizona.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.financialaidletter.com/arizona.php</a>
<a href="http://www.financialaidletter.com/american.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.financialaidletter.com/american.php</a></p>
<p>That site also had 3 examples of financial award letters without that information -- the trick is simply that you have to look for the words "cost of attendance" somewhere in the letter. </p>
<p>The letter that Northeastmom quoted from doesn't have those words -- it has the words, "Academic year total: 28,610.00" - that is not the same as COA. There is a good checklist as to what a financial aid letter ideally should contain here:
<a href="http://www.nasfaa.org/PDFs/2001/awardlet.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.nasfaa.org/PDFs/2001/awardlet.pdf</a></p>
<p>I think the problem still comes down to the fact that colleges are not always forthcoming about how they calculate things, and they probably make plenty of mistakes along the way. It seems like many people feel afraid to question the award, or intimidated by the process. Obviously those people will often end up with less aid than they are entitled to receive, and they will think that is simply the way things work. For colleges with unscrupulous aid policies, this might be a deliberate practice. In addition to the possible issue of lender kickbacks I mentioned earlier, there could be an advantage in terms of statistical manipulation -- a college that categorizes student as being non-needy will be able to report that a greater percentage of aid goes to students who are needy -- that is,you might see that X. college on average meets 85% of need for all its students- but that number could be inflated by a deliberate practice of wrongly categorizing some needy students as non-needy. </p>
<p>Anyway, if the student loan scandal of 2007 means anything, it means that we can't assume that the schools or the lenders are always acting in good faith. </p>
<p>But the point is: the colleges do have the COA and EFC figures -- and you should ask what those are when dealing with FA awards. Even if you have to ask repeatedly. </p>
<p>And if you are not getting satisfactory answers... I'd strongly suggest looking for a different college.</p>
<p>Calmom, you made some very good points. I find it unfortunate that financial award letters usually arrive around 4/1 and a deposit is normally required by 5/1, but that is just how it is.</p>
<p>northeastmom: That's a good scenario compared to returning students who must make their deposits before FA packages arrive.</p>
<p>Oh, I began paying for my son's sophomore year before his FA package came out. Mythmom, is that what you are referring to? The option was pay, or transfer and pay elsewhere. My son loves the school he attends, and at his school I only needed wait to see whether his Staffords would be subsidized or not. He does not get any other grant aid, nor is he entitled to any.</p>
<p>The 30 day spread between offers and depositing I find too short. I feel that some financial aid offices cannot handle the workload well during that month, and frankly, I do think that it has an effect on their yield. I know that my son could not consider a few private schools bc the aid package was lacking. I don't know if he would have gotten more assistance if we could sit and speak to someone without the stress of needing to get done, and making a decision in what seemed like the blink of an eye. One school we spoke with by phone was unwilling to change the package and left a huge gap, another school took with one hand and gave with another (increased the merit award by 2500, took away work study, and the subsidized loans and increased gpa to keep the merit award), and one school we just never bothered persuing bc we were too far apart and my son was getting cold feet about that school. Actually, there were two in that last category, bc one met need by offering all loans only (and it was a safety school).</p>
<p>At my daughter's college (same as mythmom's), continuing students get their financial aid packages at the beginning of July - fall semester tuition & housing fees need to be paid by August 1 -- I literally found out what my daughter's expected grant was from the bill that came from the bursar - the Financial aid letter didn't arrive for several days. </p>
<p>When my daughter was admitted to colleges, some of the colleges did not send their award letters until mid-April -- there was not necessarily 30 days to negotiate. </p>
<p>However, I emailed my daughter's college financial aid office the day I received the award, with my questions, and asked them to call me - I had a phone call back at 9:00 am the next morning. My daughter was also looking at NYU but their financial aid was woefully inadequate -- but she flew out to an admitted students event in April, the financial aid staff had tables set up and were very efficient and polite about talking to students, and my daughter was able to initiate an appeal and was given an increase of $1000, which was confirmed by email the next day. </p>
<p>I know it is frustrating and there is a lot to deal with all at once -- but the point is that if you are looking for financial aid, you have to expect that and prepare for it. The best thing you can do is learn all you can about the system during the year when your kid is in the process of applying, and then when the awards come in make a point of discussing the aid with someone from every college that remains in serious consideration. I even regret not talking to people in offices of schools that my daughter was ready to drop from her list, just for opportunity it would have afforded me to learn more -- but at the time it seemed silly to waste the time of busy staffers when schools higher on my daughter's preference list had already made better offers. </p>
<p>The point is: the task of a financial aid office is often to figure out what the least amount of money they need to offer in order to entice a student to come. That's called "leveraging" or "enrollment management" and it is what most schools that do not promise to meet full need and which offer small amounts of merit aid to many students are doing. So often they are starting with a lowball offer, fully expecting that students who are serious about coming will call and ask for more. </p>
<p>The $1000 extra NYU threw into the pot? They give that to everybody who asked; some people get $2000. By the time my daughter had talked to the finaid people, I was on to the game. </p>
<p>The colleges aren't just looking for improved yield, they want the yield to come from the top of their applicant pool. So they often give the students at the bottom -- or the ones they are least enamored of -- a deliberately low offer, sometimes in a process they refer to as "admit-deny" -- meaning they've admitted the student but knowingly structured the financial aid offer so weak that they know the student will probably not come. They figure its a win-win situation for them to avoid paying much in aid dollars to a borderline candidate -- either the student will go elsewhere, or else the student will come up with the needed dollars and become a tuition-paying enrollee as opposed to a grant-taking one. </p>
<p>It is very stressful, but 30 days is actually a long window of time for financial negotiations in a competitive environment. You should come into the process on April 1st with a good idea of the maximum you are able and willing to pay or borrow; and if you plan well then you will have also lined up some "financial safety" colleges for your kid, as well has made absolutely sure that your kid understands the financial issues involved. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that if the financial aid office at a college is particularly hard to deal with -- if they don't return phone calls, or they are rude to you, or refuse to provide basic information -- that is the office you would be dealing with for 4 years. I don't think any college is worth that headache -- so that in itself would give me reason to drop a college from the list.</p>