^ That is true but if you can look back and be happy with the education and opportunities that were experienced without regrets, that is success. If you are honest with yourself, confirmation bias is not involved. Could have, would have, should have are all irrelevant.
And another problem with this thread is that a certain group of posters will always think its wise to spend $300k on an undergrad education as long as you have the financial means (subjectively determined). So it ends up being two groups of people talking past each other.
Though the biggest problem with this thread (and the numerous similar ones that pop up here from time to time) is the decisions are very unique to each family. Different kids have different goals, interests, personalities, etc. Different families have different financial circumstances. Although I have been gone from this site for about a year, I can see some of the same people making the same arguments I saw a year plus ago (and some new people making the same arguments other people made back in the day). So nothing has changed. The term āfinancially ableā and āsacrificeā will vary by family. If someone says it was worth it to them, how does that help you make the determination for your kid/your family?
I always thought that this type of thread was pretty much useless for the OP asking the question for those reasons. People on an anonymous site (who may be telling the truth but you really have no way of knowing) who donāt know anywhere near as much as you do about your own kid and your own financial circumstances will influence one of the biggest decisions you will make? Always seemed odd to me. Ultimately, I think the real ābenefitā is for the same group of people making the same arguments over and over.
Though this did help remind me why I avoided these threads in the past. A year off made me forget. So thatās a good thing.
Remember, there are no test cases with kids. No matter what decision you make and how well it turns out, one of the other options may well have turned out better. And no matter how badly a decision works out, all other options on the table at the time may well have turned out worse. Make your own decision based on the best info you have (and hope you have a lot better info/basis for this decision than what comes from an anonymous online site) and move forward.
I leave you with one final observation, OP, and wish you luck in your decision. In my experience based upon friends and family I know well, those who thrived in college developed confidence and had opportunities, not necessarily commensurate with the rank of their school. It is far better, for employment purposes, to be number 1 at UVA than number 325 at Harvard. There are considerations besides employment, of course, but go where you will thrive. Good luck.
āIt is far better, for employment purposes, to be number 1 at UVA than number 325 at Harvardā
Or maybe you go to Harvard and you really shine there and become #1 because you are surrounded by the best and the brightest who challenge you and bring out the best in yourselfā¦
@socaldad2002 The assumption you make is flawed. By both data and ultimate outcomes and alumni success. The assertion that Harvard students are better and brighter than UVA students, is inaccurate.
If one looks at the Harvard lawsuit there are wide spectrum of students admitted to Harvard.
And not all because they are better or brighter. Some are richer, can jump higher, gained media fame or have really smart or connected parents.
Or your dad was President of the USA or a Supreme Court justice.
I think both Harvard students and uva students are equally examples of tremendously talented kids.
Then it should make the path to #1 much be easier.
@privatebanker when I say ābest and brightestā Iām not only talking about the students but the faculty, program, the guest speakers from all over the world, etc. There is a false assumption that one will only be āaverageā at Harvard (Stanford) but #1 at UVA (WF). Iām not even sure I know exactly what ā#1ā means (by a previous poster) but maybe the elite college pushes and challenges the student beyond what the latter colleges could do in 4 years?
I look at it like the gifted athlete. Will you get better being on a weaker team but are the best player or do you want to be surrounded by other exceptional athletes who challenge you beyond your imagination?
@sushritto. You must be able to see the larger point of the post - regarding the relative quality of students at the nationās best schools. UVA and Harvard students are nearly interchangeable. There is simply not that much separation and donāt know why itās is so important, to so many. Itās quite odd actually.
As a person with a wife and father in law as Harvard grads and four generations at Deerfield. The potential for intellectual snobbery could run deep in my extended family. But it doesnāt. Strange, but we are as happy and excited for the future for our Pitt nephews as the Vassar BC and ND and Brown clan. And we are certain that all of these kids , even the brilliant duo who chose Pitt for reasons of their own over so called big name schools, will find success equal to their talent and tenacity. They are all way more qualified than we were back in the day.
We love Harvard in my house. Itās the finest school by many measures. But itās not so much better to be blinded by it to other equally wonderful opportunities. And I love my wife so I better say itās a great school.
And I know nothing about wake forest other than the data and real life students from our kidās school. But we can also be open to reason and logic.
And the info being shared with youngsters and uninformed parents with a lot to lose - should be based on fact and honesty. Not selection bias or some outdated and elitist view of educational opportunities. And ignoring real life economic realities and crushing student and parental debt.
@socaldad2002 Well I think the UVA b school students wouldnāt find their time at a school with no ug b school that interesting. And the kids who live on the lawn senior year are pretty interesting too.
And the professors. Speakers. And activities on campus are equally great at UVA and wake etc. I can post the number of professors in the harvard English dept or Yale neuroscience Depts that actually attend H or S, I checked yesterday.
They come from a majority of schools many would likely consider to be inferior. And they are teaching the classes.
Are these the better profs you mention? Because I couldnāt find a Stanford grad in the mix but lots of state schools, European and Canadian equivalents.
I think when we say things about the higher level of profs and speakers. People assume itnto be true. Do you know who spoke at uva this semester. Or who are these profs that are so special. Wouldnāt they all be from hpysm if thatās where all the real talent resides and cross pollinates?
No one. Esepiclly me wouldnāt say hpysm arenāt the most selective and prestigious schools in the world. I just donāt think and have examples galore to show itās not as determinative of success as it seems some others do. And we over index them in relation to other options.
I didnāt go to a āfancyā school, I decided to pursue a athletic scholarship at a non-fancy school.
Anyway, I donāt buy that the Stanford (Harvard) and WF (UVA) students are interchangeable. This WF thread popped up today and I read it. Does WF have a 44% ED acceptance rate? I know most of the 8-9 +/- students from our local HSās Class of 2022 that went to Stanford. All were the elite of their class. Simply brilliant kids.
@sushiritto No. WF isnāt 44%. From the WF website for last year. 74 percent of student attending were in the top ten percent of their class. The majority within the Harvard 25 to 75 percent profile range I would ventureā¦ UVA oos applicants are towards the top of the range. UVA has 25000 applicants for early action this year. Up 17 percent. The total admit rate was low 20s. Much more selective than some of the cal powerhouses.
Do you think Berkeley students are way outside the hpysm threshold? I donāt.
Back to WF. āMore than 1,400 first-year students will move into Wake Forest residence halls on Wednesday, Aug. 22. This class was admitted from an applicant pool of nearly 13,000. Seventy-four percent of the class of 2022 were in the top 10 percent of their high school classes.ā
But I am not saying hpysm arenāt better schools or the students Arenāt better. At the margins. I just donāt think that margin is the English Channel. Maybe more like a river or creek that can be jumped over by many.
WAY! Thereās a old joke around here. If you ask a Cal grad why did they chose Cal (Berkeley), theyāll answer ābecause I was rejected by Stanford.ā I know a lot of Cal and Stanford grads, friends, neighbors and family, yes, āEnglish Channelā in my opinion. I buy the āStanford Mystique.ā
Regarding the 44%, is the info from the 2nd link wrong? Because it states 44%.
@sushiritto They havenāt released it. Your figures are from last year and 44 percent is the early decision round. Regular is 25 percent where there is a much larger pool. I would think in the high 20s. But the quality of the pool is great. They donāt get the waves of non competitive applications some schools get that pad that stat. There is definately overlap in the stats when you lay 25 to 75 ranges over each other.
And yes Iām sure many cal admits also tried to get into Stanford.
But to suggest that means thr Stanford admits are therefore ābetterā assumes a few things I donāt.
-that they are perfect in their decision making
-,there are no other non academic influences in the process
-a school that says it can admit three co -equal classes from its pool is lying
-the late bloomer isnāt a thing
Full pay Stanford family here ( D is a junior ) and for those who are curious, we have paid about $202,500 for all three years so far. No regrets-- she has two jobs on campus ( both related to major ), four internships ( including one this upcoming summer which is in finance/IB ( will be paid 18k for 11 weeks plus housing stipend). In her circle of mostly full pay friends/classmates, this scenario is not unique. Just sharing her experience.
Thatās awesome @iska123. Itās a great school!
The 44% figure is from section C21 of Wake Forestās CDS at https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/202/2018/02/CDS_2017-2018.pdf ā 815 / 1842 = 44.2% .Assuming nearly all of the āearly decisionā matriculated, then ~60% of the matriculating class would have been admitted ED. However, the early decision admit rate doesnāt seem particularly relevant to this thread, as the OP wasnāt an early decision applicant. If you mean that having a relatively high early decision acceptance rate means much of the class isnāt academically qualified, I donāt think you can make that assumption.
Only 29% of matriculating students submitted rank, and WF is test optional. Neither is a good representation of all students. That said, among the students who did submit scores, scores ranges are high, but notably lower than Stanford and Harvard. Specific numbers are below from the latest CDS:
Wake Forest 25-75 ACT Range = 28-32
Stanford 25-75 ACT Range = 32-35
Harvard 25-75 ACT Range = 32-35
@Data10 as I said there is overlap at the tails of the bands.
The school itself posted the stat about the top 10 percent. Itās a direct cut and paste from their website. Are you suggesting a lack of academic honesty for the school? They must have a source not available to you. It would be a bit of a scandal among the faculty to outright lie.
Do you have 25 to 75 sat range. Uw gpa type numbers? Any idea if the ecs and leadership of the classes. Thatās an important component to success in life.
Any idea about the ranges and profile of the wf Stamps Scholars?
What about cals numbers.
The majority of students rank is listed as ānot availableā on Wake Forestās website at https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/202/2018/05/2017_2018_p12.pdf . For 2017, Wake Forestās website says class rank is ānot availableā for 956/1349 = 71% of students, meaning only 29% of submitted rank.
SAT ranges are in the link above (note test optional students who did not submit scores are excluded), as well as the previously linked CDS.
@iska123 Thanks for sharing! Iām glad your daughter and her friends are having a wonderful experience. I wish more would share their experience. It might demystify Stanford, Harvard, etc. Because nothing in your post seems exclusive to me.
My D is a Stamps (not at WF). She and her friends who want those types of internships get them (she has one this summer). Sheāll be interning right alongside students from Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, etc. My D and her friends work or intern on campus (if they want to, though they donāt need to). They do research on campus and internationally. They travel the world. (My D has already done 4 study abroad programs and traveled to 9 countries, including an amazing African safari for spring break exclusively designed for them). They are, like your daughter and her friends, having similarly wonderful undergrad experiences. And the bonus is they arenāt paying for it; itās free.
I donāt care what other people do with their money. The elevation of a few schools beyond all reason is just irrational to me. Someone upthread said theyād beg, steal, or borrow to send their kid to Stanford. While that poster may have been kidding (I sure hope so), some really do think that way. Itās not healthy and not rational. I donāt deal in mystique.
Tell me Stanford is a better fit than WF for OPās specific kid. Maybe it has a particular program not offered at Wake that he wants to pursue. That I get. But donāt tell me the Stanford experience and opportunities are āunparalleledā and $300k-$500k better than the Stamps experience at Wake Forest or similar, because the objective facts and stats just donāt bear that out. Both are elite options that very few students ever get to consider. Thatās all Iām saying. I know which option Iād choose. And my D didnāt hesitate when faced with a similar choice to make.
Interestingly, last year my D went to a workshop where she ran into a student she had met at the scholarship interview weekend for where she attends now. The other student turned down the scholarship for Harvard. They compared experiences. Nothing the other student said caused my D to regret her choice. Both will be working in the same industry this summer. One of them will be working at a higher ranked company. You guess which one. 
I too am glad for you, @iska123. But your daughter likely would have the same outcome had she attended another school as well. My eldest also has a well paying summer internship in consulting this summer, and banking next summer. Looking at the linked in profiles of her fellow interns, the students are from all over-mostly