Stanford or Yale

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At the end of the day Yale will still be more financially wealthy than Stanford, it's just that Stanford hasn't reported how much of a hit it has taken.

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<p>I had a longer explanation for this (but it didn't post, for some reason), but essentially, if you took the endowment equivalent of Yale's and Stanford's donations and totaled them, it'd be Yale's $30 billion to Stanford's $33 billion (before the economic crisis). And that wouldn't be counting Stanford's significant ties to 3,000+ companies in SV, which brings in millions each year from patents and such; the developed lands that bring Stanford more money by contract; the greater federal research money, as well as research money from foundations and the industry; and the merged pool of endowment and trust assets, expendable funds, and commercial real estate investments, totaling about $22 billion at the end of the last fiscal year (according to the Stanford Management Company), putting Stanford at a 'pooled' endowment of about $38 billion (of course, Harvard's would be greater, since its donations and such would be considered as well). The point is not that Stanford has lost value in its endowment (which it most certainly has), but that Yale is not and has not been more financially wealthy than Stanford.</p>

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Compared to HYP, especially Yale, Stanford is very engineering centric.

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<p>Simply because it's nearly nonexistent on other campuses doesn't mean its presence on Stanford's makes it "engineering-centric." I think the 12% figure can speak for itself.</p>

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I don't think we go there much.I went twice a quarter, one of them being Scavenger hunt and the other being the time I stayed during Thanksgiving break. Most people don't go there much because it requires public transportation that takes a while and is not always convenient. Most of our time is spent on campus, which for me is a good thing most of the time anyway.

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<p>Well, I don't think freshmen are expected to go off campus much, but from what I've seen, upperclassmen go much more frequently (and not just to SF, but to San Jose and other local areas like Mountain View, Menlo Park, etc.).</p>

<p>I'm happy (and not surprised) to hear that there is less phony anti-intellectualism at Stanford these days, and more arts. As for being engineering-centric, I would note that of the 15,000 total students in the University (including 8,200 graduate students), 4,000 are in the School of Engineering. That's more than 25%. Compared to any of the colleges to which one would compare Stanford, other than MIT or Caltech, that's engineering-centric. And on top of that, the Silicon Valley culture is engineering-centric, too.</p>

<p>That isn't supposed to be a criticism of Stanford; far from it. It's simply to describe an important feature that distinguishes Stanford University from places like Yale and Harvard. If you are at Stanford, and you don't have a visceral appreciation of how important engineering is to the University, you aren't paying attention.</p>

<p>I agree, by the way, that it is silly to say Stanford is less wealthy than Yale. First, they are both wealthier than they need to be. Second, like Harvard, and unlike Yale, Stanford's real estate holdings, which are largely off-balance-sheet for the endowment, would add billions and billions to its net worth if they were valued at fair market value, even today. Third, yes, current support is important. And I bet engineers are responsible for a lot of it!</p>

<p>I think we're interpreting "centric" differently; I interpret it as a sole "focus." 25% (including grad students, which I don't think is relevant to someone seeking an undergrad degree), to me, is still far from "centric" (perhaps if it was 50%+). MIT would be engineering-centric; so would Caltech. Not Stanford, though. (This is obv. just semantics.)</p>

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If you are at Stanford, and you don't have a visceral appreciation of how important engineering is to the University, you aren't paying attention.

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<p>I think my problem with statements like that is that it makes the university seem to marginalize other areas of study, which is very, very far from the truth. Stanford cares just as much, if not more so, for its social sciences (being consistently ranked in the top 2-3, as is the case for engineering), as well as the humanities, the physical sciences, etc.</p>

<p>kyledavid80, Stanford is a good school and I hope you're happy (I certainly am VERY happy I chose Yale and I assume you are the same about Stanford). However, some factual errors need to be corrected:</p>

<p>A) RE: Yale's Endowment vs. Stanford</p>

<p>-Yale's "huge losses" are likely FAR less than other schools. Yale's 25 percent estimate includes estimated losses on both illiquid and liquid assets. In contrast, Harvard lost 22 percent on purely liquid securities – without factoring in other losses like Yale did -- in September through November (Yale also said what they lost on securities during this period and they lost a little over 10 percent). Unlike HPS, Yale has NOT instituted any hiring freezes etc.
-Perhaps you should read the article on Yale’s investment officer David</a> F. Swensen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and the “Yale Model” of portfolio theory. Yale has been the envy of other colleges over past 10 years or so because its returns have been higher and it avoided the bulk of dot-com crash. 25 percent may seem a lot, but I think you’ll see that this is significantly less than other schools over the coming months (after all, markets are down 50 percent).
-Your whole endowment equivalent of donations is silly (you don’t have the proper evidence but are just essentially inventing information and donations add less than earnings/losses on investments anyways). However, I will say that Stanford has lots of money in real estate, although they probably won’t sell it. But the greater issue is that Stanford is about 15,000 students while Yale is about 11,000 so Yale has more money per student and per undergrad.
-These arguments are silly. Both universities are rich enough!!! My main point is that Yale makes the campus life rich, not just that they have a lot of money in some investment accounts!</p>

<p>B) Facilities</p>

<ul>
<li>Stanford is beautiful, and Yale is beautiful. However, I think it is fair to say that a lot of Stanford’s beauty is from the natural landscape whereas Yale’s beauty comes more from the intricacies of the buildings themselves.
-Yes, Stanford may be spending $1 Billion on renovating dorms. However, EACH of the renovations of the 12 existing colleges cost several hundred million dollars, and the two new residential colleges cost $600 million alone!</li>
<li>You cannot call Stanford’s 11-12 groups “residential colleges” without being grossly unrealistic. The Yale Res. College system is unique (except for Oxbridge), and no other Am university has something comparable – even the House system at Harvard pales in comparison. Stanford has other things going for it, but don’t try to claim that there is a res. college system there without deluding yourself.
-“Yale is still trying to build much of the infrastructure to keep up with Stanford, infrastructure that Stanford has long had.” Simply, no! Yale is not just playing some kind of “catch up” merely because it is expanding or has expanded so much infrastructure – it is positioning itself for the next century! This is a logical fallacy: you can't reasonably say that merely because there is construction means that Yale is worse off because they couldn't possibly have had nice facilities earlier (rather, Yale is trying to further distance themselves from the competition).</li>
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<p>C) Personal Bias</p>

<p>-Not only am I from the bay area, not only was I accepted at both, but I also have taken classes at Stanford and spent lots of time on its campus. Stanford is great – the teachers are strong and the weather is unbeatable -- but I still prefer Yale for a myriad of reasons. You can’t go wrong with either school and I really like both schools; I just love Yale more.</p>

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Yale's "huge losses" are likely FAR less than other schools. Yale's 25 percent estimate includes estimated losses on both illiquid and liquid assets. In contrast, Harvard lost 22 percent on purely liquid securities – without factoring in other losses like Yale did -- in September through November (Yale also said what they lost on securities during this period and they lost a little over 10 percent). Unlike HPS, Yale has NOT instituted any hiring freezes etc.

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<p>All of this is really irrelevant--it doesn't matter that Yale lost comparatively less (as a percent), or that it lost less than a school that isn't even in this discussion. The fact is, its endowment is now about $6 billion lower than what it was before.</p>

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Your whole endowment equivalent of donations is silly (you don’t have the proper evidence but are just essentially inventing information and donations add less than earnings/losses on investments anyways).

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<p>How is it silly? Each university needs to spend money; only 5% of the endowment is spent, and the rest comes from various other sources--student tuition, donations, etc. You can't deny that donations are a huge part of a private university--that's why they constantly solicit their alumni.</p>

<p>Now, someone was making an argument that Yale is "more wealthy," probably because of its superficially larger endowment. But as we established, only a small part of the endowment is spent each year, and so other sources will matter much more. If you take these into consideration, Stanford is as wealthy as Yale, if not more so. Thus, we need to find a common ground of comparison--in this case, converting it to "endowment terms." This is the same method used when comparing private schools to public schools (in which you have to convert government revenues' spending power to "endowment terms"). Thus, the idea that Yale is "superior" because it can offer its students more since its endowment is larger is plain false.</p>

<p>None of the above figures are made up; google the total donations by school. Google the % endowment that each spends. And as JHS said, the above analysis doesn't even count all of Stanford's lands, real estate, etc.</p>

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Stanford is beautiful, and Yale is beautiful. However, I think it is fair to say that a lot of Stanford’s beauty is from the natural landscape whereas Yale’s beauty comes more from the intricacies of the buildings themselves.

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<p>I don't know why this is being contested, but I'd say that Stanford's beauty also comes largely because of its buildings, which are beautiful as well--many of them are very intricate (ever seen Stanford's quad? Encina Hall? Jordan Hall? Toyon Hall?). You can't put plain buildings in a pretty landscape and expect people to see it as beautiful.</p>

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You cannot call Stanford’s 11-12 groups “residential colleges” without being grossly unrealistic. The Yale Res. College system is unique (except for Oxbridge), and no other Am university has something comparable – even the House system at Harvard pales in comparison.

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<p>You make the statement that Stanford's groups of dorms are not residential colleges, but then you just go on to say the same thing over and over again (without proving anything).</p>

<p>Note, also, that I never said the clusters of dorms are residential colleges, but that they could be called them, since they have similar characteristics. But as I said, they have different systems of housing, i.e. Stanford has the draw, whereas Yale assigns its undergrads to a college for their four years, etc.</p>

<p>Let's look at the similarities--Yale's colleges have:
-a master -- Stanford has residence deans for each cluster
-a dean -- Stanford has an academic director
-resident fellows -- Stanford has the same for each dorm in the cluster (sometimes multiple RFs)
-dining hall -- Stanford has one for each
-common areas -- Stanford has that for each dorm, as well as common areas for the entire cluster (courtyard in Wilbur, courtyard in Toyon, etc.)</p>

<p>The facilities that each cluster has varies--a library, or a field, or basketball courts, etc. And then of course there are pool tables, ping pong tables, pianos, cafes (Cyber Cafe in Stern, Late Night in Lagunita, etc.), and so on, within the dorms.</p>

<p>They're not the same, but are similar.</p>

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-“Yale is still trying to build much of the infrastructure to keep up with Stanford, infrastructure that Stanford has long had.” Simply, no! Yale is not just playing some kind of “catch up” merely because it is expanding or has expanded so much infrastructure – it is positioning itself for the next century! This is a logical fallacy: you can't reasonably say that merely because there is construction means that Yale is worse off because they couldn't possibly have had nice facilities earlier (rather, Yale is trying to further distance themselves from the competition).

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<p>I'm not saying Yale doesn't have any infrastructure; that wouldn't make sense at all. I'm saying that Yale is playing catchup in areas that Stanford has long been strong in--namely, engineering and other sciences (though not all). And it still hasn't caught up in those areas--Stanford is still better in those areas, easily. Likewise, Stanford is playing catchup in the arts, where Yale has long been strong and where Yale has more infrastructure than Stanford. (However, Stanford has typically still been ranked in the top 10 in the arts and humanities, whereas Yale isn't even on the map for engineering, and barely on it for some of the sciences.)</p>

<p>What is the point of this? This is not gonna go anywhere. These are two of the best schools on the planet we're talking about and OF COURSE there are differences. I think everyone accepts that Yale and Stanford are not the same. But if this is all about determining which one is better than thats just silly. Thats an opinion, not a solid fact. I guess i just dont see the point of this.</p>

<p>When choosing between the two (or in general), it is far more important to focus on the aspects of what you are planning to major in, what extracurriculars you want to do, and what you are specifically looking to get out of college. For me, since Stanford does not encourage double majoring, I looked elsewhere. But don't try to figure out which school is "better" in general. Figure out which one fits better just for you.</p>

<p>Here would be my reasons to choose between Stanford and Yale</p>

<p>1.) Check with those who are in other HYPSM, especially your close friends. In my case, most of son's friends pointed to Stanford.</p>

<p>2.) If you want to go to graduate schools at HYPSM after Stanford or Yale, check current graduate students' undergraduate backgrounds. In my case, Stanford graduates are many more in those schools than Yale graduates. </p>

<p>3.) The critical one is that if you are "Undecided" when you get in, you better go to Stanford, since it has more choices.</p>

<p>4.) The weather and location do not matter that much. If you wish, you can spend $50,000 a year at much better place and finish the books. It is what after your current school matters.</p>

<p><a href="However,%20Stanford%20has%20typically%20still%20been%20ranked%20in%20the%20top%2010%20in%20the%20arts%20and%20humanities,%20whereas%20Yale%20isn't%20even%20on%20the%20map%20for%20engineering,%20and%20barely%20on%20it%20for%20some%20of%20the%20sciences.">quote</a>

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<p>I didn't realize Stanford was even on the map for arts. Does it have a graduate fine arts program similar in structure to that of Yale (which is #2 right now, if anyone cares about stupid US News rankings)?</p>

<p>Note: this is a legit question.</p>

<p>If Stanford is so rich, why doesn't it offer need-blind admission for international students?</p>

<p>Because it feels no obligation to.</p>

<p>Wow GimmeStanford, please stop this kind of hubris... please...</p>

<p>Can someone please give me an honest answer?</p>

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If Stanford is so rich, why doesn't it offer need-blind admission for international students?

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<p>That's something I've been wondering myself; it's one of my big criticisms of Stanford.</p>

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I didn't realize Stanford was even on the map for arts. Does it have a graduate fine arts program similar in structure to that of Yale (which is #2 right now, if anyone cares about stupid US News rankings)?

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<p>I say "arts and humanities" since they're often grouped together. Stanford is #6 in arts & humanities in the US, according to QS Top Universities, and #7 (tied with Chicago) in the NRC ranking (for reference, Yale is #6 here).</p>

<p>As for fine art itself, I'd say Stanford's "okay" and is improving; clearly, Yale is far better than Stanford in this respect (IMO, better than RISD). I don't know much about Stanford's fine arts program, though.</p>

<p>"If Stanford is so rich, why doesn't it offer need-blind admission for international students?"</p>

<p>Actually, I asked this very question to an adcom. She said that it was because the funding for international students is derived from international alumni donations; it varies from year to year depending on how much money international alumni members donate. That could be one of the reasons why this year, we have so far heard of a grand total of 0 international students seeking aid getting accepted, as due to the economic crisis, alumni members may have been less inclined to donate.</p>

<p>Stanford may indeed have a large endowment, but .serendipity is right that the funding sources are different for international aid</p>

<p>From a Stanford Daily article: </p>

<p>According to President John Hennessy, the inability to offer need-blind admissions to international students stems from a lack of funding.</p>

<p>“Much of the funding designated for international students comes from outside of the United States,” Hennessy said. “And that pool is a lot smaller in comparison to the alumni pool domestically.”</p>

<p>To offer need-blind admissions for international students, Hennessy estimated, the University would have to spend at least an additional $10 million each year — an increase that would require a $200 million bump in Stanford’s endowment. Currently, Hennessy suggested, Stanford’s endowment per student ratio is insufficient to fund need-blind admissions, which Harvard, Yale and Princeton are all able to do.</p>

<p>“Our peer institutions are able to offer need-blind financial aid because of the total size of their endowment compared to their student body,” Hennessy said. “Harvard has a student body that’s slightly larger than ours, but it has an endowment roughly twice ours. Princeton has an endowment five percent smaller than us, but a student population that is half in size. The endowment per student is significantly lower at Stanford than at Harvard, Yale and Princeton.”</p>

<p>International</a> student aid lacks - The Stanford Daily Online</p>

<p>I'd read that before, and I say it's complete BS. 10 million is a drop in the water. Sure, Stanford spends about 5% of its endowment each year, so 10 million would require a $200 million increase in the endowment; but that's with the assumption that Stanford doesn't want to increase the percent of spending, which it did without question after Harvard announced its financial aid expansions. Stanford would need to increase its yearly spending .058% to pay for international aid; it could raise money to pay for international aid (a $4.3 billion campaign is ambitious--a tiny portion could pay for international aid).</p>

<p>Stanford claims to want to be a truly international school, but it so far isn't willing to dish out the money for it. If it's spending millions to support middle-income students, upper-middle-income students, and low-income students, it can spend a little more to support international students as well.</p>

<p>Haha I definitely agree, since I was deferred; my adcom implicitly said it was because of this reason. :(</p>

<p>A professor who taught at both Stanford and Harvard was asked to compare the undergraduates at both schools. He said, Harvard's students were more nakedly ambitious; Stanford's were just more naked :)</p>

<p>Although at issue here is Stanford vs. Yale, the above anecdote applies to this discussion. There is a different vibe at Stanford: it is OK at Stanford to be very accomplished and still appear 'mellow' - the California lifestyle does encourage a kind of laid back veneer you won't find at Yale, where the veneer of pretentiousness is far more acceptable.</p>

<p>This thread is essentially debating whether Mercedes or BMW has the best options package. Go to Stanford if you care about the weather; other wise go to Yale for the residential college system.</p>

<p>I agree with both of the last two comments. Sometimes I say that debates like this are arguing about whether Gabriel or Michael is the better archangel. </p>

<p>In katliamom's post, the operative word is "veneer". For the most part, it's the same people doing the same things. At Stanford, they're wearing fewer clothes, and looking cooler while they do it, and they can swim outdoors 11 months/year (with the 12th month consisting of odd weeks during the winter). At Yale they have great residential colleges. And the Earth never threatens to open up and swallow anybody. (I noticed that nobody had mentioned the earthquake factor yet.)</p>