Stanford study: California's broken schools or Mr. Jobs' vindication

Parents Forum
21

<p>That's correct, marite. (Post #18)</p>

<p>But I don't tolerate that, which is why I won't accept a permanent contract in such schools. It's immoral. Major. I wouldn't accept a situation which required me to ignore or under-serve the 1-8 black students who did not speak the foreign language. These are not Spanish immersion schools. They are English immersion schools. And bilingualism was outlawed in CA public schools long before AA at U.C. was.</p>

<p>Very often teachers in these classroom use the black students as teaching assistants. SO unprofessional. A teacher with spine would be reporting these schools to the State. That teacher would also lose her job, because it would be outing the principal. So that's why I don't accept contracts for a self-contained classroom, because I know I'd lose my job in a heartbeat.:(</p>

22

<p>Good Lord! What is it about every three weeks, somebody gets on education bad/ vouchers good/system broke/ fire all the teachers crap?</p>

<p>Xiggi, when you get around to having kids, homeschool them. Many people will appreicate your efforts to do so. </p>

<p>This is a never ending one legged a kicking contest. A shell game. Three card monte. Our children WILL NEVER achieve high levels for testing. Why? We'll simply change the test to keep the debate alive. </p>

<p>Let's say Xiggi can run the 100 in 11 seconds. Pretty darn good speed xig, way to go. Well let's change the standard for the 100 to 10 seconds. Xiggi can do a 10.5 which is good but now he doesn't meet standards.. There must be a problem?</p>

<p>Besides anybody can teach, can't they? I mean it LOOKS so easy.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
xiggi, I see nowhere where I used simplistic soundbites. Nowhere. Remember that I am looking at this with insider, intimate, & current information -- not as a casual observer, knee-jerk reactionary, or with 20-second local TV news "stories" as my source. I never once said the word "illegal." Please. I <em>proctor</em> these tests and I know my population. I'm required to & paid to.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Epiphany, please read my statement again:</p>

<p>"For what it is worth, this topic of discussion does not lend itself easily to quick assessments and simplistic soundbites, especially when it comes to issues such "not valuing education" or "refusing to learn English." One typical misconception is considering the illegal immigrants as being part of a homogeneous group, not to mention the substantial number of legal citizens of hispanic origin."</p>

<p>My statement did not intimate that you engaged in posting simplistic soundbites. I mentioned that there was no need to start a lengthy debate about this issue, and followed by a statement about the complexity of this topic. </p>

<p>Also note that I did not make the first references to the illegal immigraton situation ... I simply followed on a previous post which stated that "IMO a significant amount of the problems being seen in California are due to the huge influx of illegals by people with a low educational level, who place little emphasis on the importance of education, and who refuse to learn English." This is also the post you you referred to: "ucla_dad is exactly correct, and he would know, as he lives in the heart of it."</p>

<p>Again, I have no intention to debate this ad nauseam. You have your research and real life examples to rely on; I have mine. </p>

<p>Again, the format of this forum does not allow anyone to express all the necessary nuances and complexities needed to fully cover the subject. After all, foundations, think tanks, and researchers are spending millions on this precise issue, and only offer preliminary recommendations.</p>

<p>Opie, I may have an easier alternative: stop caring about issues that surround us, but will probably never have a direct impact on our individual life. After all, it is a lot easier to focus on analyzing the T-Bill curve and prepare for a life as an I-Banker in an area of the country where the issues are less relevant.</p>

24

<p>*Our children WILL NEVER achieve high levels for testing. Why? We'll simply change the test to keep the debate alive.
*
pretty much ... from Olympia- in Washington state today...
Lawmakers have had 14 years to set the standards, develop the test and educate parents and students of the need to pass the WASL in order to graduate....
The state House and Senate have both passed measures to delay requirements that students pass the math and science portions of WASL to graduate.</p>

25

<p>There are many legal immigrants who are ESL learners too. In fact, one of the things that makes California classrooms so challenging is that kids may come in with so many varied backgrounds. San Francisco, even years ago, had to keep translators of 28 (!) languages on hand to deal with families. The complexity has only increased. Related to that, the private schools have it easy.</p>

<p>My daughter's in teacher training now. In her first student teaching assignment, in a room full of Hispanic and Anglo kids, she was assigned to work individually with a fifth grade child who had just come here from Korea and barely spoke English. With 40 children in the class, there would have been no one to do that without a student teacher. When she volunteered in an Oakland charter school last year, there were a half a dozen different Asian languages represented, some of them from rural cultures that have no real literacy tradition. There were African children and others who came traumatized from situations they've lived through. At the junior high and high school levels, there may be only one counselor for 3-500 kids.</p>

<p>The nonsensical funding situation is a consequence of Prop 13, passed all those years ago, which ended up shifting much more of the funding and control to the state level. I am heartened that this report, which was financed by foundations and includes the work of not one but many researchers over two or three years, may set the conversation at the state level to re-start. To design a system, not just add more patches. There is much in there every stakeholder can agree with. Certainly teachers and administrators can sign on to the notion that there is way too much paper work and a jungle of regulations aimed at "accountability" that are more time-consuming than productive.</p>

26

<p>'Again, I have no intention to debate this ad nauseam. You have your research and real life examples to rely on; I have mine."</p>

<p>Ephif probably has a few decades (no offense ephif) under her belt in classrooms. I'll consider her opinion in the same way I'd consider the opinion of a veteran on issues of war. </p>

<p>Besides.. it LOOKs so easy.</p>

27

<p>thank you, Opie.</p>

<p>Xiggi, it's not playing fair to hit and run. (Claim you "didn't want to start a lengthy debate," but then engage in provocative statements that do invite a learned & thoughtful response, do not come from classroom experience, and claim they are just as valid as those of an experienced professional.) I'm sorry, they're just not. Do you have teaching credentials? Do you actually teach in the classroom, to people who speak almost no English, along with native speakers with an inalienable right to be educated? I don't think so. </p>

<p>Whether you "want to start a lengthy debate" or not, the issues are complex, if not lengthy. Sac has touched on some of them. It's one thing to state an opinion about improving a system; everyone can rightly have an opinion. (As sac said, "there's much in [the report] for every stakeholder.") I consider every taxpayer & voter & resident a stakeholder. It's another thing to claim you're not quoting me or arguing with me, yet then repost both ucla_dad's and my comments out of context, and conflated with each other. I supported part of his statement -- the essential part. Nor was he (or I) beginning a debate about illegal immigration, yet you seized upon one phrase to deflect the discussion from education to immigration, and then argued with <em>me</em> about something I never said. </p>

<p>I'm actually not content to let "the think tanks who spend millions" be the ones making decisions for me or setting policy that may be just as misdirected as the current one. If you didn't want to do the hard work of discussing it, then why reply at all? (After posting) Some posters do the service of citing links for others to debate, but choose not to join the debate. But you did choose to, and now claim you don't want to discuss it but want to have your opinion equally validated. Doesn't work. Yes, there are nuances. Damn right. </p>

<p>To start a thread which even in its abbreviated posting includes about 7 major educational issues, then dismiss the experiences of teachers as having no more relevance than your opinion and "experience," and that you're not interested in grappling with the issues,is really contradictory and not credible.</p>

28

<p>I think an example from my neck of the woods will add some flavor to the discussion.</p>

<p>The Toronto Board of Education surveyed every student in the system ( 27000 of them) in 1991 and a report on student achievement was released after almost two years of analysis. The report was legendary among education professionals but was not released to the public until a local paper did so in 1995.</p>

<p>Without going into great detail, they found differences among students of different socio-economic background, ethnicities, family structures etc. and started a political storm of some magnitude. Almost everyone was asking what was wrong with the "system" for treating different students differently.</p>

<p>Since the City of Toronto has one of the most culturally diverse populations in North America, the only thing students have in common is their schooling. Blaming the only constant in the equation for treating students differently is mathematically absurd. </p>

<p>IOW, while the students may be "culturally" different, they all attend the same schools, sit in the same classes, having the same teachers, studying the same curriculum. If all students do poorly, then there is at least a case against the system. Historically, however, the Board sent a disproportional number of representatives to the International Math Olympiad and other international competitions. Furthermore, certain groups succeeded beyond all expectation on a consistent basis.</p>

<p>No, I think the problem is with the students and their families. Unfortunately, political reality is not scientific reality...</p>

29

<p>Epiphany, all I have to add is asking you --politely--to read my posts with closer attention! You're twisting and reinventing the history of this thread.</p>

30

<p>For those who like the SAT as a measure of how kids are prepared for college I share this interesting contrast between private and public education in my own household.
My two kids- both have similar LDs- however one went to private school, and one public.
Their SAT numbers are similar- 10 or so points different.
However the oldest took the older SAT with just two sections and the younger who attends public school, has similar numbers but with the three section SAT.
Her grades BTW are similar or better , in the districts ( some would say the states) pre-eminent high school, compare to her sisters GPA in private school.</p>

31

<p>Not "twisting" or "reinventing," xiggi, but I PM'ed you.;)</p>

32

<p>Thank you for the PM.</p>