Stanford vs. Duke vs. Harvard. vs Northwestern vs. Penn

Colleges and Universities A-Z Stanford University
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<p>Hi, I'm a Junior, and I am trying to make a list of colleges that I plan on applying to. Out of these (Stanford, Duke, Harvard, Northwestern, Penn), which best fits me? I realize that I should visit these schools to really get the feel for which is better, but I am just looking for some help nonetheless. Anyways, here is what I'm looking for:</p>

<p>-great pre-medical program (I want good advising to help me find research opportunities and internships, etc. I want a place that has great overall academics too with friendly and accessible teachers.)</p>

<p>-location in/next to a big city (I want to experience a cultural city that offers things from great restaurants to popular sports teams to fantastic shows. I know that I probably won't be able to see everything and will probably only go out to the city once or twice a week, but I want to have the option at least.)</p>

<p>-great school spirit (I want to be around a tight-knit environment with people of the sort. Also, I really enjoy watching sports (especially football and basketball) and want to go somewhere that has lots of school spirit and fans for their sports teams, which are at least pretty successful. I don't need the top ranked school in each sport, but entertaining, competitive sports would be super fun to watch.)</p>

<p>-competitive atmosphere, but not cutthroat (I like competition. I feed off competition in a way. And I want to be around competitive people, but not SUPER competitive people. I don't want to be around people who won't work with me on homework, help me out, etc.)</p>

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<p>I come from a high school where roughly 30 people per graduating class pre-med. Our counselors almost always recommend attending a “match” instead of reaches, which Stanford and Harvard most certainly are. The rationale for this is that Med School admissions relies so much more on GPA and class rank than undergrad admissions does. At Stanford and Harvard, they say, the competition is much stiffer, so getting to the top of the class is much more difficult. Nevertheless, you don’t want to sacrifice quality education. So, based off that alone, Duke, Northwestern, and Penn would be better if pre-med is your first priority. I don’t know enough about the specific programs to give you an accurate weighting on the actual quality.</p>

<p>Continuing down the list, Philly and Chicago are, without a doubt, very big cities with lots of things to do. On the other hand, Durham NC, while still a medium sized city, is not nearly as large.</p>

<p>School spirit is pretty big at Duke and Northwestern. Both are major DI teams. Duke, obviously, has a fantastic basketball team though its football is questionable. On the other hand, Northwestern’s basketball is terrible. But its football team is decent, making a bowl game most years during the past decade. </p>

<p>All five, as far as I know, are not known to be cutthroat. All are also top-notch universites, so they would have competition.</p>

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<p>while the argument makes sense to a lot of people, my opinion about going to a less difficult university just to get a better GPA to get into better grad schools is ridiculous. Just by going to Stanford or Harvard, for example, gives you so much credibility and opportunities for research and other things that will help you get into med school. On top of that, med schools know the relative difficulty of schools and adjust for that in their evaluation of candidates.</p>

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<p>Premed- don’t know much about each one, but it seems like Stanford puts a lot of resources into the premed program. </p>

<p>city- Evanston > Palo Alto. San Francisco is kinda far away (40 minutes by car, 1.3 hours by train). Northwestern isn’t in downtown Chicago’s backyard either, but the public transit is way better in Chicago than from Palo Alto to Sanfran. I think Harvard and Penn are pretty close to great cities, which seems like a big advantage, and there’s really nothing special about Raleigh or Durham in my opinion. I doubt you’d go to downtown Chicago or SanFran once to twice a week unless you had a job out there or something. </p>

<p>sports culture- One shock I’ve had out here is that California is a black hole for sports culture. Stanford has some competitive teams, but the only sport right now people really care much about is football. Although this might change in the next couple years if out basketball team and the Pac-10 gets more competitive. As far as pro sports culture goes, it’s pretty nonexistent. Not many Stanford students care about pro sports, and those who do seem to be mainly transplants from the Midwest or northeast where pro sports are a huge deal. </p>

<p>-Stanford is competitive in that there are lots of smart students who will be studying and you’ll have to match that to get a top grade. It’s not competitive in that people don’t normally share or ask about test scores/grades, they will generally not hesitate to help others out, and I have never even heard of an instance of sabotage. I’ve heard Harvard is pretty competitive and borderline cut-throat. Doubt the others are much different from Stanford.</p>

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<p>It always baffles me that people make the argument that Stanford and Harvard have so much grade inflation, but at the same time, they aren’t ideal for pre-med because they have “stiffer competition.” Really, which is it? Seems to me that if they have grade inflation, you’re more likely to get into med school. Not to mention they’re bigger names than the others, and anyone who tells you that your undergrad school has no influence in grad/professional school admissions is lying.</p>

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<p>^
I actually think the grade-inflation isn’t really that big of a boost.</p>

<p>Based on personal references, I have smart friends at Berkeley telling me that a 4.0 is jokingly easy if you know what you are doing, and at the same time, some very smart people at Stanford telling me that they are pulling A-'s in most of their classes. (not thats bad or anything, but I’m just trying to make a point)</p>

<p>According to them (and a few others), it would sound like that:
At a larger “less competitive” school, its easier to get one of the top grade in the class, however, if you don’t do well, it might drop you down to a C or a D in the class, but if you go to Stanford or Harvard where there is grade inflation, then its harder to get the top grades in the class, but if you don’t do as well, you’ll end up with a B-.</p>

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<p>Chemistry at Stanford is difficult. really difficult. Most people won’t end up with lower than a B-, but that’s a serious GPA killer. curve seems pretty much 35-40% A, 50-55% B, 5-10% C and below. while a B- is better than a C, these are all students who, at a public university or even a little less competitive private university, would all get As.
no matter what, it is the university that should matter, not the premedical program. At Stanford, even though the premed classes are competitive, there are other great opportunities for being a research assistant, internships, etc. some students stop taking premed classes in order to finish them elsewhere because there are other classes they would rather take. others try to do some in the summer. in the end, you never really know if medicine is really for you until much later. most students think “oh that’s not me, i’m sure of my interests”, but things change. pre-med advising at stanford isn’t the best, but advising isn’t that good anywhere. </p>

<p>i think palo alto is a nice town, and i wouldn’t mind going every week - but i rarely have the time to go anyway. san francisco is kind of a 1-2 times a quarter thing. (or san jose, but there’s less there).
sports culture in the bay area seems baseball-centered right now. there are a lot of sports fans in some friend circles. if that’s important to you, just be friends with those people. stanford athletics is weird. most teams are awesome, and there are a lot of athletes, but people aren’t super-supportive of the usual big-money sports. football attendance is horrible. i went regularly, and i don’t even like football. however, when games are on tv, there will definitely be a lot of people watching. (caring about stanford football increases for some over the years and decreases for others. i think there are more stanford athletics fans in freshman year than later)</p>

<p>academic competition is really nice at stanford in most non-premed classes. people are really collaborative and really like to help each other. even in premed classes, you will have support in your freshman dorm, may not as much later. people are all really smart, and you have to work hard to do well, but people aren’t cut-throat. </p>

<p>Penn is definitely not a very good academic atmosphere. it has more unfriendly competition (similar to JHU), and i would say harvard is somewhere between. i don’t know that much about Duke or Northwestern, but I would assume they aren’t that bad if we haven’t heard about them.</p>

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<p>^^
Could I ask which chemistry class you were referring to?</p>

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<p>“anyone who tells you that your undergrad school has no influence in grad/professional school admissions is lying.”</p>

<p>grad school, maybe, but for med school many on CC argue that undergrad institution matters little in the application process in comparison to, say, the weight placed on your GPA. the average GPA of students accepted to medical school is pretty high even at top colleges. this topic is talked about all the time in the CC premed forums and elsewhere.</p>

<p>this isn’t to say that you shouldn’t attend stanford should you be accepted (like others already said stanford can offer tons of advantages of its own), rather that you should be prepared to work hard and not rely on the reputation of the college to cover up for any possible deficiency in your GPA.</p>

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<p>I agree with HazelCapri and anyone else holding the same opinion. For sure, where you attend undergrad doesn’t make a difference for Med School. As a matter of fact keep this in mind too. When you attend a school like Stanford on a Premed route you are making it that much harder on yourself to achieve a GPA of 3.6 or higher. The competition is just tougher. The medical schools do give you a little extra credit for having attended a tougher university but not that much. I was told only a tenth of a point. So if you have a 3.4 coming out of Stanford or any school of its equal good luck getting into med school because its only getting bumped to a 3.5, if you’re lucky. The Med schools only look at 3 things 1) GPA 2)MCAT 3) letters of recommendation. This brings me to the next topic. When you go to a school like Stanford getting into a research lab is certainly possible but getting the professor to notice you is much harder. So now you are one of many undergrads/grads working in Prof. X’s lab and when it comes time for the recommendation he/she may not know you well enough. Again, this is where going to a smaller less prestigious school is helpful. My son’s pediatrician was the one who told us the following: Keep in mind everyone applying to Med School has a 3.6 GPA or higher, and everyone has done well on their MCAT, so the only thing that separates you from the pack are your letters of recommendation. Our Doc went to a small undergrad school where he got to know his Prof so well that they played poker on Thursday’s. Thats the kinda relationship you need to have so your letrs of rec stand out and make you ‘raise above the crowd’.</p>

<p>A very good friend of the family just got into DUKE for his MD/PhD. He went to a state school, was top of his class, had tons of research because he was the big fish, and had amazing letters of recommendation from professors who truly knew him. He is doing fantastic in Duke!!!</p>

<p>My S just had an inteview with a Duke Alum and she told him flat out not to go to Duke if he wanted to go to medical school. (she was a doctor herself) She said it’s so incredibly hard, compared to other schools, and the caliber of student there is just unbelieveable making it impossible to compete. She recommended he try a less competitve school and mind you my S has fantastic grades, scores, graduating in top 1% of 600+, in one of the most competitiv highschools in the country. So this wasn’t being said because he looked like he couldn’t cut it, but because they were truly her words of wisdom.</p>

<p>Think about schools like Holy Cross in Massachuetts, Tulane in Louisiana, Richmond in Virginia. All have fantastic premed programs, there are great scholarships (my S received 100k from Tulane upon acceptance plus he is applying for another scholarship for an additional 40K) Richmond nominated him for there full scholarship and another for a full ride -tution, room and board. We didn’t apply to Holy Cross but my niece did last year and they were very generous with their finaid. She chose Notre Dame at the end. ND is another great school. If name is important to you this is a nice compromise. Certainly a tough school but not as crazy as Stanford.</p>

<p>All that being said my S is waiting to hear from Stanford and we shall see if he heeds any of this advice. He loves Tulane and Richmond (although Richmond is a bit on the small side for hime) and he got into Notre Dame. They also nominated him for their new merit scholarship. So it will be interesting to see what he gets ($) and where he decides to go. Personally, we have visited all the schools and I love each one of them for their own personalities.
Good Luck!! Hope this helps</p>

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<p>I’m not saying that your undergrad institution is extremely important–but to say that it doesn’t have any role in admissions or in job placement isn’t true. I think it’s small, but can be a tipping factor–and given how competitive med school admissions are, you need every little boost you can get. At any rate, I think Stanford’s better than most of those listed for pre-med, simply because a lot of (if not most) premeds major in human biology, which, along with pre-med requirements, is the perfect major for med school admissions (esp. given that it won’t bully your GPA). </p>

<p>For pre-med there will be competition, but any other school is likely to have even more competition. Even at schools like Tulane, if the competition is better, I have a feeling the opportunities pale in comparison to what you could get at Stanford or Harvard or Penn. Also, Stanford allots more funding to undergraduate research than any other university, not to mention it has more professors than most top schools (I think only Harvard has marginally more), so you’re more likely to engage in research with professors, grad students, research associates, postdocs, etc.</p>

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<p>How? Why? Is this just a hunch?</p>

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<p>getting A-s in Stanford’s premed classes is definitely do-able. it just takes some work and a lot of studying time. or natural talent in chem. </p>

<p>in my opinion, getting to know faculty is extremely easy here. in the large bio research labs, that may be different, but so many premeds at stanford aren’t the typical “bio” majors. many are humbio, social science, or humanities majors who are able to research in other less stereotypical bio lab settings. in these places, getting to know your research supervisors/advisors is a lot easier. I’m not disagreeing that it would be easier for most people at a smaller institution, but if you are willing to take initiative (which many students are not), you can have all of the benefits of a small school here too.</p>

<p>in my opinion, though, no one should choose a college based on future medicine hopes. SO MANY students change their minds, even the ones who think they never will.</p>

<p>i think people underestimate the effect of having a transcript that lists “Stanford University” under education, not that it should be your reason for choosing stanford either</p>

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<p>I apologize if I gave the impression for even a second that Stanford is anything less than perfect. To be completely honest it is my favorite school in the US!!! I simply wanted to let people know the things that we have found out along the way, which truthfully do make a lot of sense too. If you can take the initiative, get a 3.6+, have great ltrs of rec than you are certainly sitting at the top of the pack, when it comes to Med School. However, for the average very smart kid its just nice to know theres more than just one way to tackle this issue. Its not the only route into Medical School. The big fish in the little pond is just as doable and that was the message I wanted to convey. </p>

<p>As for Stanford being fantastic it is!!!</p>

<p>Phantamagoric: No, its not a hunch. Its common sense. When you attend a school like Stanford you are most definitely going to sit a classroom with some of the most intelligent students in the USA and across the world. In a regular school there’s always a few ‘curve busters’ in Stanford everyone is… Again, not a big deal if you’re one of them.</p>

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<p>Phantamorgic: One more thing Tulane is a Carnegie research facility so you can’t say that it doesn’t provide ample opportunities. Also their graduate program isn’t as huge as Stanfords so you’re not competing with grad students for research.</p>

<p>We visited Tulane and I was a complete skeptic at first. It was very surprising to see what was available, not to mention it has its own Med School. Now granted, its not Harvard Med School but Med School is Med School, and Tulane has a program where you can be admitted into Med school as a junior in undergrad and its not binding. So its a nice safety net to have when most kids in the USA are just happy to get into any American Med School. Tulane is a little misunderstood, due to Hurricane Katrina. It has come a long way and is located in a fantastic city. We hired a college counselor to work with our S and she recommended Tulane and Richmond for anyone considering the Premed route, and we were extremely surprised when we visited both schools. Also for the kid who is concerned about tutition, Tulane has amazing scholarships. Like I mentioned already my S got 100K with his application and was also allowed to apply for additional monies, which if he receives it, will make it a full tutition scholarship. We just pay room/board ($13k) not too shabby. And Richmond has nice money too. Not as easy to secure as Tulane because they have to nominate you and then you have to apply/write a bunch of essays etc.<br>
Anyway its all food for thought!!! Good Luck to Hogwartshopeful</p>

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<p>Where you go to college does matter, in applying to med school, but your performance (grades adjusted for inflation, MCAT scores, etc.) is paramount. It is well known by professional schools that a 3.6 GPA at Swarthmore is more like a 3.9 at Stanford or Harvard, and that a 4.0 at Syracuse is not the same achievement as a 4.0 at Duke. Further, if you look at where physicians do their ultimate and most relevant training (either residency or subspecialty fellowship), it rides much more on their class rank/honors at medical school than where they went to medical school (and undergrad is a distant memory at that point). I.e. middle of the class at Harvard medical school will not get you into as prestigious a residency as top of the class at Chapel Hill.</p>

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<p>^^^^
Was waiting for Dad2 to chime in with his usual ode to Swarthmore. :smiley: Never disappoints! :)</p>

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<p>Interesting how you invariably fail to chime in/respond to the substance of the posts rather than jumping to defend Stanford’s honor. Swat is, actually, a tougher school than Stanford et al and deans of admission at med and other graduate schools do take that into account in looking at GPA’s. BTW, that was not the main thrust of my post which actually does tell it like it is with regard to a career in academic (and/or clinical) medicine. Y’all do get alot less snow, however…;)</p>

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<p>Dad2, kimathi didn’t even mention Stanford; he was merely expressing amusement at yet another post from you in this forum where you manage to work in some PR for Swarthmore. The OP was asking for comparisons among specified national research universities.</p>

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<p>No, it isn’t. Swat is excellent (IMO, the best LAC, above Amherst and Williams, on par with Dartmouth as an LAC). But I have to admit that schools like Swat want to seem like they’re “tougher” because they generally don’t measure up well against schools like Stanford. This might be more because traditional measures of quality tend to favor larger schools like Stanford and Harvard, but more often than not, it seems as though Swat and other LACs try to pump themselves up by promoting that they’re more “intellectual” and “rigorous.” I really doubt it.</p>

<p>The greater point to be made here is that it’s possible that some majors at Swat are more rigorous than some majors at Stanford, and vice versa. Since Stanford pre-med students really vary in their majors, it makes no sense to say that Swat is “a tougher school” on the whole.</p>

<p>FWIW, I’m not disdainful of LACs, and I do know quite a lot about them. I turned down a full scholarship at Swarthmore for Stanford, and to this day I know that was the best choice for me. I imagine that for almost every applicant, Stanford is the better choice. Sorry, Dad2, Swarthmore is an amazing school, but it just can’t measure up to Stanford in ways you might want it to. Of course the two have different missions, neither of which is necessarily ‘better’ than the other, but when you consider specific aspects (like grad school, or research, which heavily favors non-LACs), Stanford is much more likely to win. </p>

<p>One might say to this, money talks. Rich colleges dominate. Same old, same old. While this line of thought isn’t what we want subscribe to, it’s the reality.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say that it didn’t. I’m saying that Stanford has more, and it also has a greater diversity of opportunities.</p>

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<p>This is a strange misconception on CC–that with more grad students, you’re less likely to get involved in research. The reality is exactly the opposite. With more grad students, you are more likely to be able to do research, first by working with them–as well as postdocs and other researchers–and then with the professor. The idea is that grad students are your ‘yellow brick road’ to professor attention. (IMO, it’s better to work with a grad student before a professor; they tend to have more time and to be more receptive to hearing your ideas, as well as executing them.)</p>

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<p>Let’s face it: the kinds of students that are admitted to Stanford et al are going to disdain Tulane med school. Call it arrogance, call it whatever you like, but med school degrees are not all created equal, and top students at schools like Stanford are going to be shooting for the stars. If you’re okay going to Tulane, you’re probably okay going to Tulane med school. This isn’t presumption on my part; this is pure observation, and an accurate one, I would say.</p>

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<p>Agreed–it is a nice safety. But Stanford students are not ‘most kids in the USA.’ Again, sounds arrogant, but it is what it is.</p>

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<p>Really not trying to rain on your parade here–I wholeheartedly agree with your intent to show that “for the average very smart kid its just nice to know theres more than just one way to tackle this issue” (then again, Stanford et al don’t typically have the ‘average smart kid’). But I have a feeling that with Stanford’s ‘free tuition if you make under $100k’ policy, it’s going to be a better deal for most students.</p>

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<p>But so often with these sorts of issues, the reality comes in direct opposition to what common sense might dictate (as I demonstrated above re: grad students).</p>

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<p>Agreed–but that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be competitive. I’ve sat in those classes, with literally the most brilliant people I’ve ever met (not glorifying here), but it isn’t competition. It’s collaboration, because we wouldn’t be able to get through it if we viewed it as competition. Going back to the grade inflation point, Stanford’s view seems to be that, if the students are intelligent enough to do well with the material they hand them, then they get the appropriate grade. That’s why Stanford has grade inflation–not because it’s ‘easy’ on its students, but that it sees no point in punishing its students simply for being really diligent.</p>