<p>I believe I did indirectly criticize iCalculus when I said you had backed up your belief with someone who hadn’t even attended (yet?). And also in general, when I referred to the stereotypes in the echo chamber and posters who propagate the myths. And at the end of that post when I pointed out in so many words that there are some posters who embarrass people from the school they are promoting on every forum.</p>
<p>But this is what you said about iCalculus:</p>
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<p>And yet you use his attitude and a 1926 novel to support you confident description of Princeton:</p>
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<p>Hopefully, some of the factual information provided by PtonAlumnus will help to correct your prejudice.</p>
<p>My basic point, however, was that my daughter also had a somewhat negative reaction to Princeton when we visited–not because she met any students that she disliked or because anything in the info session suggested that the school was elitist. But because she went in with a vague preconceived notion (I admit partially my fault) and the campus on that drizzly August day seemed too groomed, empty and perfect. Totally shallow observations.</p>
<p>In retrospect, I realize we were completely guilty of a superficial judgement, something that is a pet peeve of mine, and that all the attributes that you project on Princeton, as well as those you ascribe to Stanford, are found in very similar degrees at both, and all of their peers.</p>
<p>And sorry to OP for all the sidetracking, but it happens and you should just skip through and use what you can to help you.</p>
<p>I don’t intend for my comment to refute yours by any means, but just some more data from Collegeboard in response to:</p>
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<p>A preliminary look at the 8 Ivy League schools as well as Stanford puts Princeton at tied for #1 in highest percentage of Whites. It’s tied w/ Brown at 49%, slightly ahead of Dartmouth at 48%, Cornell at 44%, Harvard at 40%, and the rest of them in the 30s.</p>
<p>By this superficial measure, Princeton does have a claim to at least being the most White Ivy (+ Stanford)… Princeton does appear to be fairly diverse (and certainly more so than it was historically), but it seems like arguing that Princeton is more diverse than its peers is a bad route.</p>
<p>Omega, the Collegeboard numbers don’t appear to be even close. Here are the numbers from the most recent Common Data Set forms for the Ivies and Stanford. I believe these reflect this year’s freshman class but it doesn’t change much even if you averaged all four classes.</p>
<p>Harvard, Penn and Princeton are at the lower end of the Ivies in terms of white enrollment, or, to put it another way, are second highest in the Ivies in terms of ethnic diversity. Stanford has a huge Asian-American population reflecting, in large part, the ethnic makeup of its home state of California. On the other hand, it has a slightly lower international population.</p>
<p>The difference probably partially stems from your/the CDS’s designation of Hispanics and Nonresident Aliens… I can’t imagine what else it would be.</p>
<p>I reject the idea of race as a proxy for diversity.</p>
<p>If you want to talk about diversity, talk about race AND socioeconomic status AND political ideology AND religion AND sexual orientation etc.</p>
<p>If you include all of those factors, then you get a more complete picture. So your statement is totally vacuous because your own closed-mindedness has limited your definition of diversity.</p>
<p>You want to talk about diversity, explain Stanford’s Californian population (or the EC pops. of the Ivies, etc.).</p>
<p>I apologize and invalidate your complaint by clarifying I meant diverse racially when I made that comment you quoted.</p>
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<p>EC pops.? Not entirely sure what that is, sorry.</p>
<p>Re: Stanford’s high California population. </p>
<p>According to their respective Common Data Sets (2009 - 2010 for both schools), Stanford is 46% Californian while Princeton is 19% New Jerseyian (not really sure what the term is). </p>
<p>By a 2008 estimate, New Jersey constitutes 2.794% of the United States population while California constitutes 11.86% of the United States population. This shows that Princeton over represents New Jersey 6.8:1 while Stanford over represents California 3.9:1. Of course, by absolute percentages, Princeton over represents New Jersey by 16.2% while Stanford over represents California 34.1%.</p>
<p>What do we conclude from this? Well, nothing. Even private schools over represent their states dramatically, and California just happens to be huge. By some metrics, it is possible to argue that Stanford fails more at maintaining geographic diversity than Princeton does… But by others, the exact opposite argument can be made.</p>
<p>The amendment is noted. Nevertheless, we still haven’t gotten any closer to resolving the general claim of Princeton not being as diverse.</p>
<p>So although I agree that Princeton is less diverse racially, I DON’T accept with evidence the claim that Princeton is less diverse (even on a socioeconomic level).</p>
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<p>East Coast.</p>
<p>And you’re exactly right – the geographic diversity is not so clear-cut. On the other hand, it is easy to tag a school as not very diverse geographically if, for example, 90% of students are in-state.</p>
<p>Columbia - 17%
Dartmouth - 15%
Harvard - 14%
Cornell - 14%
Stanford - 13%
Brown - 12%
University of Pennsylvania - 11%
Princeton - 10%
Yale - 10%</p>
<p>Princeton ranks 2nd to last (assuming US News actually breaks ties at the two significant digit level). The only reason I don’t quickly conclude from this that Princeton is less socioeconomically diverse than its peers is that the percentage of Pell Grant recipients only tells part of the story. Unfortunately, the rest of the story probably doesn’t come with enough open data. I am, however, inclined to think favorably of Princeton due to Princeton’s more distinguishable financial aid policies at higher levels of income, but this is difficult to prove.</p>
<p>@johnAdams What I mean is that since I am relativey well off by my country’s standards, I get to meet the few people in my country who are aware of American universities. And they have all heard of Harvard and Yale-(news, shows etc). Some have also heard of Princeton but all of them don’t consider it in the same league as Harvard and Yale. Among the laymen, this seems to be the case. One of the many reasons that the majority of cross-admits prefer Yale and Harvard to Princeton. Infact, before I even really seriously considered going abroad for education I held the same notions about these great universities.</p>
<p>However after significant research, I came to the conclusion that Princeton’s undergraduate education is unrivaled. And among the people that matter (graduate school admission officers and employers), Princeton is considered just as good as Harvard and Yale. Again the keyword is prestige not quality.
[exerpt from long June 7, 2005 article in USA Today on the magic of the Harvard 'brand name."]</p>
<p>“There isn’t any doubt that brand matters and that Harvard is the prestige brand,” says Stanley Katz, director of Princeton University’s Center for Arts and Cultural Policy Studies. “It’s the Gucci of higher education, the most selective place.”</p>
<p>“It used to be the case that of students who were admitted to Harvard and Princeton or Harvard and Yale, seven of 10 would choose to go to Harvard,” Katz says. “It may be more now. There is a tendency for the academically best to skew even more to Harvard. We just get our socks beat off in those cases.”</p>
<p>Minder I have great respect for Stanford. I am suggesting that you consider giving more thought and research before making comments. Your Stanford classmates and professors will hold you to a higher standard than you have experienced in high school. </p>
<p>Omega, PtonGrad2000, and Baelor, have made more factual contributions to the difficult topic of diversity. Thank you minder for the link to Stanford’s Common Data Set. JHS for some reason lurks on the Princeton board; he is certainly no homer for Princeton but his comments are factual and informative. When you discuss race, religion, background, sexual orientation, political viewpoint, and region of origin you might avoid superficial impressions. These topics are too sensitive for many people.</p>
<p>Universities will by their geographic location be diverse in different ways. Boston’s substantial Jewish population suggests that Harvard, MIT, Brandies, BC, and other Boston area universities will have a larger Jewish student body than Utah. Similarly the substantial Asian population in California may lead to a higher percentage of Asians at Berkeley, Stanford, USC, etc. </p>
<p>To Omega’s comment arguing that Princeton is more diverse than its peers is a bad route. I have not made that statement. I find the topic of diversity too complex to try to make such a statement. If Princeton has more XYZ students than Stanford but fewer ABC students which is more diverse? I simply stated Princeton’s diversity facts, the publications that have endorsed Princeton as a welcoming environment for students, and the steps Princeton has taken to make the university a welcoming environment for all students. I have not compared Princeton to any other university.</p>
<p>I do not know if Pell Grants [named for Senator Claiborne Pell 40] are a good measure for Princeton since Princeton provides all grant, no loan, scholarships to students. If you are admitted to Princeton you do not need a Pell Grant.</p>
<p>NJDS, I did not intend to hijack this thread. You seem to be strongly leaning towards Stanford. Stanford is a fantastic university. When I interviewed a student for Princeton this year he told me he was also applying to Harvard and Stanford; he asked me to compare the schools to Princeton. I blurted out that Stanford and Harvard have more in common with Princeton than differences. I should have talked about Princeton undergraduate focus but what I said is true. Once a student has decided on a university I wish them well at their chosen university. I believe in a post you said you visited Princeton recently but did not talk to many students. Rather than tell you about the WWS or biology I suggest if you are truly still undecided to return to the Princeton campus. Visit the student center and talk to students. Tell admissions that you would like to talk to a WWS representative about the Program in Global Health. A posting on CC now should not be much of an influence on your decision. Ask your guidance counselor if you can take a day off from HS to visit Princeton. You have a choice between two great universities; there is no wrong decision.</p>