Stanford/Yale Premed

<p>I bring up the "successful premed gpa=overall student gpa" index because I think that is the case at two places that publish stats on both - Amherst and Princeton. Not many colleges enroll such good students that one could ask the average undergrad to be a successful premed, but Stanford and Yale are two places where it might be reasonable.</p>

<p>The weeding issue is complicated. Imagine a student with a marginal gpa and mcat. She could get two opposite types of messages, formally and informally, from her college.</p>

<p>A. Look, kid, there is no realistic chance you are getting in medical school. Sure you can find someone with your record or worse who got in, but you may as well plan your future around hitting the lottery. Take time off, do some good research, with publications, pull your mcat up to 35, and then we will talk. Until then, don't waste your time or ours.</p>

<p>B. Well, I'll be honest, its an uphill slog for you. Most of your applications will result in rejections. To be realistic, you can forget about places like Harvard and Stanford for medical school. Most of our top students are rejected from those places- magna cum laude and mcat 40 would put someone in the running, but even they will probably be rejected. Apply to a couple of the top places if you want, but put your effort into schools that actually might take you. Every year we have students with records like yours get in somewhere. They are now on their way to being doctors. You could probably put together a stronger application if you took time off, but if you want to go for it now, we will help you. Let's look at where you should apply, select your letter writers carefully, and put your best foot forward. We're on your side. Good luck.</p>

<p>College A will have fewer marginal students applying, and a higher success rate. It will also spare the marginal students the large investment of time, money, and psychological energy in a losing proposition. Some of them will reflect on how difficult they found it to keep up in a premed curriculum and ask whether they want 4 more years of the same in medical school. Some will use this conversation as a start to, perhaps for the first time in their lives, really think about whether medicine is their goal, or their families expectation. Some will find themselves liberated from the weight of a lifetime of programming towards medicine and head off for something they really want to do. Is this bad? </p>

<p>It is easy to vilify the weeders until you see someone spend 3,4,5 years post college in a futile attempt to get into medical school, and live a long time thereafter viewing themselves as a failure. And this could be a solid student from a very good college. Feeding false hope is not a helpful thing to do. Is college A being discouraging and manipulative? Are they just being honest? There is no black and white here. </p>

<p>As BDM keeps saying, the success rate, in a vacuum, does not mean much. By the same token, one person's weeding out is another reality testing.</p>

<p>1.) Celestial: it sounded far-fetched, even to me, but I'm really kind of trying to figure out what's going on here.</p>

<p>2.) afan: Yes, I think there are circumstances in which "mercy weeding" is probably justified. Weeding just for the sake of protecting numbers is clearly not. (George Mason publishes its statistics in very good detail. They include a student with an 11 who was not admitted anywhere.)</p>

<p>
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Celestial: it sounded far-fetched, even to me, but I'm really kind of trying to figure out what's going on here.

[/quote]

I'm sorry; could you clarify what you're referring to?</p>

<p>My thought that Stanford might weed premeds and then include the weeded ones in its statistics sounded far-fetched even to me.</p>

<p>I think schools that go with "A" are really trying to help themselves and their numbers.<br>
If you're 22 and applying to med schools, you've made the decision to become a doctor. What you need from your undergraduate school is support, not criticism. The idea of "sparing the marginal student" is ridiculous. The marginal student isn't dumb and in need of the undergraduate school to make decisions for them about their futures. It's fine to explain to them that it's a long shot, as in situation "B", but then it should be up to the student to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision, and after that it's the duty of the undergraduate institution to support them.</p>

<p>For more info: <a href="http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=403983%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=403983&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>ASMAJ's link to the SDN discussion of a student facing the same decision is a good resource with comments from current and former S and Y premeds. </p>

<p>The discussion there about free clinics obscures the fact that the volunteer opportunities for undergrads are similar at both.
<a href="http://arbor.stanford.edu/vol_undergrads.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://arbor.stanford.edu/vol_undergrads.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://freeclinic.med.yale.edu/getinvolved.php?viewpos=yes%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://freeclinic.med.yale.edu/getinvolved.php?viewpos=yes&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The important point made by posters here and at SDN is that pre-med advising and the pre-med curriculum are unimportant criteria for choosing between these two excellent schools with different environments.</p>

<p>(And for BDM, the risk of undeserved credibility: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/nyregion/30yale.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/nyregion/30yale.html&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>1.) Highlights include Stanford students agreeing that their advising is poor.</p>

<p>2.) Also there seems to be confirmation-by-second-rumor that their percentage is around 75%; but, then, maybe they just got that from here, in which case we're talking in circles.</p>

<p>3.) I don't know that I'd agree that advising is a small factor. I think it could matter quite a bit.</p>

<p>See posts #19 and #20: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=149508%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=149508&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
2.) Also there seems to be confirmation-by-second-rumor that their percentage is around 75%; but, then, maybe they just got that from here, in which case we're talking in circles.

[/quote]

I have the official 2005 statistics for Stanford: the acceptance rate was actually 74% that year, compared to 46.7% nationally. I don't know why more recent stats haven't been published.</p>

<p>bluedevilmike:</p>

<p>I've read several of your threads, and I would agree that you give great advice. But I think it's unnecessary for you to argue with a current Stanford student about Stanford's weak points; you seem to be giving a misleading image.</p>

<p>"I've talked with several premeds coming out of there and the advice they're getting is frankly pretty poor and often very vague."</p>

<p>I personally know several premeds who love Stanford's advisors, so it's mostly based on personal experience, isn't it?</p>

<p>I'm a high school student, and I love to find good advice and insight on colleges (like Post #16). Numbers and statistics can only provide information to an extent. I resent it when people give biased opinions about other colleges.. it could give the wrong images, and I find myself getting turned off by a college just because of one person's opinion (even though I tell myself I shouldn't.) I mean.. if someone talks about an important downfall, it's a good thing because I'm getting informed and warned about a college. But when someone just repeats their opinions about what they 'heard from several students', I think it could be misleading.</p>

<p>Also, the whole 'weeding' thing.. it's definitely something about Stanford that I wasn't aware of (I don't know if it's even true, though). But I don't think there's so much need to emphasize it. I don't think that anyone who's willing to try hard should be worrying about getting weeded out.</p>

<p>I'm not trying to offend anyone.. I just gave my opinion as a high school girl who's tired of CCers arguing about which school is 'better', usually only giving out statistics and 'people told me..' examples to defend their argument</p>

<p>("You're a new member, what are you so tired about?"
I forgot my password to my old one so I just felt like making a new account :))</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, the whole 'weeding' thing.. it's definitely something about Stanford that I wasn't aware of (I don't know if it's even true, though).

[/quote]
I've been trying to explain that I don't think it's true. I was trying to explain a data discrepancy. This is what I mean when I say that I thought that hypothesis was "far-fetched" -- that I don't think it's true.</p>

<p>1.) My point is not that Stanford students are unhappy with their advising, although I think the SDN thread emphasizes that several of them are. My point is that I am unhappy with the advice my friends are getting. I am currently in the process of working with several Stanford premeds and they're getting very weak and sometimes incorrect advice.</p>

<p>2.) When anecdotal experience AND numerical discrepancies both point in the same direction, you're starting to see stronger evidence of a trend. Absent a controlled experiment, I think these two provide the best picture you're going to get.</p>

<p>What else did you want? It's not like you can RNA-interfere with a students undergraduate program.</p>

<p>3.) And remember I have repeatedly mentioned that part of the numerical depression is going to be out of Stanford's control: the CA brutality, specifically. And that 75% is already pretty freaking good. So clearly Stanford students do very well.</p>

<p>
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but I don't think the Stanford campus atmosphere and reputation are as fundamentally grounded as Yale's

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</p>

<p>What the heck does that mean? (And feel free to start your your discussion with undergrad Engineering, as an example.) </p>

<p>Not wanting to argue, but its my impression that Stanford kids are just more laid back in external appearances, like a duck floating on a pond while paddling furiously below the surface. I concur with you and others that each campus and its student body has a distinct personality, but know that many do not like student personality in New Haven. :)</p>

<p>btw: good friend is a Stanford alum, who has only positive things to say about her school and its advising, and who just happens to be a BlueDevil med student. :D</p>