<p>Is it better to start pre-med studies at a community college or a four-year college?</p>
<p>A community college is cheaper, less competitive and thus easier to earn a high GPA that medical schools require. A four-year university is more expensive and harder to earn a top GPA, namely the University of California.</p>
<p>But how would a CC applicant who transfers to a four-year college (like the University of California) be compared to a person who has gone to a UC all four years?</p>
<p>bump bump bump</p>
<p>Some med schools won't even accept pre-med courses from a CC. In my personal opinion, NEVER take a pre-med course at CC unless absolutely necessary. Adcoms can't judge those scores effectively and it may look like you couldn't handle those courses at the university level.</p>
<p>I dont know about that twenty8, alot of people go to community colleges in California and transfer to 4 year universities in California. Im going to a communtiy college and transferring to a 4 year college...can you show proof that some medical schools dont accept community college courses? I think all do but I can be wrong?</p>
<p>Let me clarify, because I think you are confused.</p>
<p>In regards to core pre-med courses (biology, chemisty etc...) it's best to take them at the university level if you can. Getting an A in CC is generally different than an A in a 4-year school, and it can be difficult for med schools to assess the grades, as compared with university students, where they know the relative reputation/difficulty of the curriculum.</p>
<p>"We have no requirement, however, the Admissions Committee considers not only what courses an applicant takes, but where the courses are taken."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mssm.edu/bulletin/faq/faq.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.mssm.edu/bulletin/faq/faq.htm</a></p>
<p>Boston U for instance, will not accept CC or AP credit for core pre-med courses. I'm sure they'll accept non pre-med courses though.</p>
<p>Like I said, it's just some, but it's important to know which in case you are/were interested in applying.</p>
<p>Best of luck :)</p>
<p>Definitely try to take as many of the pre-med courses at the university level. A lot of med schools technically accept pre-med requirements from community colleges, but it is not looked at favorably. If you want to take classes at a CC, I suggest taking your gen eds.</p>
<p>Let me offer the counterexample. The following link was written with premeds at Stanford in mind, but is applicable to any premeds.</p>
<p>"Myth #11.
I AM ALWAYS BEST OFF TAKING ALL MY
INTRODUCTORY PRE-MED CLASSES AT
STANFORD.</p>
<p>False. It is true that it is more difficult to get
an A in a Stanford pre-med class than it is at most other
schools. This is easier to understand since you are
graded on a curve with some of Americas best students.
Consequently, an A at Stanford can mean a lot,
particularly in science classes with a C mean.</p>
<p>However, most of you wont get As in every
class. And because of this, some of you certainly
would have had higher GPAs elsewhere. It is also true
that medical school know this and will take it into account.
However, this forgiveness factor is not infinite.
Getting a 4.0 in your pre-med requirements at a
junior college will certainly make you a stronger applicant
than a 3.5 in your pre-med requirements at Stanford.
One admissions officer I spoke with estimated
the bump factor of attending a school like Harvard or
Stanford to be between 0.3 and 0.5 of a grade point.</p>
<p>For some of you, an A in high school could
be achieved through hard work and determination.
This is not necessarily true of the pre-med classes at
Stanford. Everyone is trying hard. They are all smart.
And the classes can be very difficult.</p>
<p>The upshot of all of this is that some of you
may be more successful applying to medical school by
taking most of your pre-med classes elsewhere. And I
have certainly known many applicants who would have
been more successful applying to medical school if they
had pursued their academic passions at Stanford and
took their pre-med classes elsewhere, either in summers
or in a year off. I have also known students at Stanford
who would have been fantastic physicianswho
quit the pre-med process in frustration without exploring
this option. If you want to be a doctor and are
struggling at Stanford, this option is worth exploring.</p>
<p>I say this with some hesitancy because I know
it may cause controversy and it is difficult to know who
would be statistically better off focusing their pre-med
energies at a less competitive institution. I should also
add, however, that all such core classes cover the material
required both for the MCAT and to be a good
doctor.</p>
<p>This in no way is meant to imply you made the
wrong choice by coming to Stanford if you are a premed.
Quite the contrary, Stanford may be the best
place in the country for pre-meds to attend college.
You can attain a first-rate education in any field and simultaneously approach your pre-med curriculum with
more flexibility and more creativity than at nearly any
other university.</p>
<p>Take home point: Consider taking some of
your pre-med classes elsewhere if you are hitting a wall
here. Many successful medical school applicants have
done this."</p>
<p>Now, look. It is clearly true that an A at a difficult school is clearly more impressive than an A at a no-name school. However, it's also very difficult to get A's at difficult schools. If you think that anybody can get an A in their premed classes, try telling that to the premeds at, say, Caltech or MIT. The truth is, at top schools, you can study your tush off and STILL end up with a bad grade. These people would have been better off taking their premed classes somewhere else. </p>
<p>Bottom line. For the purposes of med-school admission, an 'A' from Caltech is clearly better than an 'A' from Pasadena Community College. That is true. On the other hand, it is also true that 'A' from PCC is better than a 'C' from Caltech. There are a LOT of people at Caltech who end up with C's, or even worse.</p>
<p>Sakky,</p>
<p>I live in Ann Arbor, MI which is home of my undergrad university (University of Michigan), however, Eastern Michigan University is a 10 minute drive. What is better, an A at EMU or a B+ at Michigan?</p>
<p>The point is to give yourself the best possible chance of getting in. Yes, the adcom would rather accept someone who got an A at a community college than a C at a university, but they would also rather accept the other guy who got an A at the university level. If you can get the A's you need at a university, then definitely go this route. If you can't, take the classes at a CC but know it is not looked on favorably and that your peers that did well at your university will have a more competitive application than yourself.</p>
<p>Additionally, if you can't do well at a university level maybe you should reconsider med school. Not everyone can get good grades in these classes, but not every premed should become a doctor, either.</p>
<p>This is what I like about you man, you tell it like it is. I agree with you that an A from a University definetly looks better than an A from a Community College. What would you say is the cut off where Community College grades are better than Univeristy grades? for instance, does an A at a community college look better than a B+ or A- at a university? It seems on that Stanford PDF a 0.3-0.5 deviation in the grades would mean that an A at a Community College beats a B+ at a Univeristy, but not an A- at a University, is this how it is? Or does an A from a Community College still beat an A- from a University?</p>
<p>For community college transfers- would it even be possible to avoid all the premed classes, still successfully transfer to a four year, take all the required classes back to back in the last two years (jr and sr), and still apply in time for med school?</p>
<p>The required courses would have to be spaced out throughout the four years (2 at CC, 2 at 4Year), wouldn't they?</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is what I like about you man, you tell it like it is. I agree with you that an A from a University definetly looks better than an A from a Community College. What would you say is the cut off where Community College grades are better than Univeristy grades? for instance, does an A at a community college look better than a B+ or A- at a university? It seems on that Stanford PDF a 0.3-0.5 deviation in the grades would mean that an A at a Community College beats a B+ at a Univeristy, but not an A- at a University, is this how it is? Or does an A from a Community College still beat an A- from a University?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you are looking for formulas then pick up a physics book because you certainly wont find any in the med school app process (as with any other app process). I think there should be a certain level of integrity to your application and the way you choose to go through your premed career. I would, by no means pass up taking a class at my University, ranked 9th in the US, just because I am going to get a B+ and instead go take it at a third tier CC where i would be by far the smartest person in the room. There is no way to hide that that is a complete copout. If i were on a med school adcom i would certainly see that as the person not even having enough confidence in his own abilities that he didnt even attempt to compete at a higher level. I mean, of course if you are pulling a C in the class at a university then you should go and take them at a CC just to give the semblance of doing well. Also, it depends on the school you go to....if someone is going to a top 20 school and then takes classes at a community college for no reason other than having As then that is simply laughable. In my opinion it is better to be average at a great school than to be the best at a school where there is no competition at all.</p>
<p>I don't really see the point of attending a prestigious university if you're going to take all of your hard classes at a community college. What a waste of an education...and the adcom WILL notice. What happened to studying hard to get good grades? I'm growing weary of all these schemes to try to trick med schools into accepting underqualified applicants. Med schools have standards and recommendations for premeds for a reason. It's supposed to be hard work, so stop looking for the easy way out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What would you say is the cut off where Community College grades are better than Univeristy grades? for instance, does an A at a community college look better than a B+ or A- at a university? It seems on that Stanford PDF a 0.3-0.5 deviation in the grades would mean that an A at a Community College beats a B+ at a Univeristy, but not an A- at a University, is this how it is? Or does an A from a Community College still beat an A- from a University?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here I would actually have to agree with shraf that there is no hardset formula. </p>
<p>My point is not to debate the merits of getting an A in CC vs. an A- at a real university. They are probably equivalent.</p>
<p>My real point is to warn you that getting a bad grade (i.e. a C or worse) is pretty darn near disastrous, even if it is at an extremely difficult school. There are PLENTY of people who get bad grades at extremely difficult and rigorous schools. </p>
<p>Shraf talks about how he would rather be average at a top school than to be the top guy at a no-name school. However, the problem with that is how do you even know that you will be average at a top school? Keep in mind that at any school, half of the students, by definition, are below average students (for that school). That's obviously a tautology but it also puts things in perspective. So half of the students at MIT are performing below average. Half of the students at Caltech are below average. And these are the students who are getting tagged with lots and lots of bad grades, perhaps bad enough to flunk out. Somebody at MIT and Caltech has to be last in the class. It could be you. And in fact, you stand a 50% chance of being below-average at your school. </p>
<p>The point is, you really have to assess what your chances of success are. Like I said, somebody at MIT has to be last in the class. Yet that person is still one of the best students in the country. But his MIT grades certainly won't be very good. In fact, they might be so poor that he'll probably get expelled from MIT, and certainly will have little chance of getting the grades necessary for med-school. Surely, this guy would be better off taking all of his premed classes somewhere else. Heck, this guy would probably be better off never having gone to MIT at all.</p>
<p>Sakky, I think you argue some very good points, however, I noticed most of your examples seem to stem from the top-of-the-top elitist schools. While I don't doubt that you're right in your examples, I think the general rule of thumb for most is that university classes are preferred over CC on the whole. Getting the best grade is important, but learning the material needed to be a successful physician is, in my opinion, much more signficant. Going to a prestigious school will earn you some credibility, but no more so than someone who outperforms you with a substantially higher GPA and MCAT score at a public college.</p>
<p>Oh, and I took your advice on the honor program. Thanks :)</p>
<p>I feel that to be able to confidently go through the med school app process and through med school you have to have enough confidence in yourself and the work ethic to conquer the premed classes at the college your in. The reason you landed there (persuming its a good school) is because the people there are those who you were meant to compete with and i completely agree with Meg222, i couldnt have said it better myself. I think if first of all you dont absolutely demand of yourself that you do well in your premed courses in the college you are at then you should reconsider going to med school cause you will most probably fail out, because once you are there you can no longer take an easy way out because there wont be one...so might as well apply yourself early. </p>
<p>I would just like to clarify that sakky's examples are very one sided....you have other top-of-the-top elite schools, like most of the ivys where 50% of the class doesnt do THAT badly....and rarely anyone actually fails. In my experience i have never gone into a premed class expecting to do badly and i took them seriously because i knew i had to do well...and i've seen that if you are genuinely serious about your course of action then you will do well....any bad grade you get is directly attributed to a lack of effort above anything else...so if you arent willing to put in the effort then reconsider med school cause you will probably not want to put in the required effort to get through it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think if first of all you dont absolutely demand of yourself that you do well in your premed courses in the college you are at then you should reconsider going to med school cause you will most probably fail out, because once you are there you can no longer take an easy way out because there wont be one...so might as well apply yourself early.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That might hold if people actually flunk out of med-school. The truth is, that practically never happens. You might get bad grades and bad clinical write-ups that will kill your chances of getting a good residency. But as long as you do the work, you won't flunk out of med-school. Far and away, the hardest part of med-school is getting in. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't really see the point of attending a prestigious university if you're going to take all of your hard classes at a community college. What a waste of an education...and the adcom WILL notice. What happened to studying hard to get good grades? I'm growing weary of all these schemes to try to trick med schools into accepting underqualified applicants. Med schools have standards and recommendations for premeds for a reason. It's supposed to be hard work, so stop looking for the easy way out.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The way I see it is, it is the adcoms own fault for being so anal about numbers. </p>
<p>Like I said, just because you work hard doesn't mean you're going to get a good grade. There are certain schools, like Caltech and MIT, where you can be a brilliant guy who works extremely hard in his premed classes...and STILL get a bad grade. That's the nature of grade deflation. So such a person might have gotten top grades at some other school such that he could get into med-school now finds that his bad MIT/Caltech grades means that he can't get into medical school at all. How fair is that? </p>
<p>The same thing can be said about various majors. Let's face it. Certain majors are far harder than others. Some brilliant workaholic could still end up with terrible grades in Chemical Engineering whereas he might have easily cruised his way to straight A's in Leisure Studies. Yet if both of them apply to med-school, who has a better chance of getting in? Be honest now. </p>
<p>So when you say that the adcoms will notice that some guy taking a bunch of easy CC classes, I would ask why would they notice that, and yet fail to notice that Chemical Engineering at Caltech is extremely hard? You know a guy who did that basically went through hell. But the adcoms don't care. They'll demand top grades from him anyway. If that guy has gets 2.5/4.0 GPA, you know he won't get admitted, even though he probably worked harder and knows a lot more than a lot of the candidates that the adcom does admit. How fair is that? </p>
<p>The point is, the present situation of admissions is deeply unfair to those students who go to difficult schools like MIT and/or complete difficult majors like engineering. I see people taking easier CC classes as basically righting a wrong. What I think should REALLY happen is that admissions should not use grades at all, but should use only the MCAT ( as well as EC's, rec's, etc.) , and if the MCAT proves to be lacking, then just make a better MCAT. The use of grades is deeply flawed because of grades at different schools and different majors are simply not comparable.</p>
<p>Meg and Sharf, you seem to be under the impression that classes at a community college are always mailed in As. That is not the case. Eventhough the competition is not as stiff as it is at Stanford for example, there are still people that get bad grades and fail at community college classes. Also, taking community college classes isn't always a cop out of hard classes. For instance, many 4-year universities will require them as pre-requisites to transfer there if you start out at a community college.</p>
<p>Madden Bus, I think it's safe to say though that for the most part, there is a difficulty discrepancy between classes at a community college versus classes at a 4 year university. Of course people will still fail and get bad grades at community colleges, but you have to consider the differences in who attends a 4 year college versus those that attend a community college if you're looking at the types of students/adults who are failing in the community colleges versus the those at 4 year universities.</p>