<p>bethievt's interesting question about the U of Iowa Honors Program, about which I know nothing, reminded me to ask more generally about big state university honors programs in science or technology. The U of MN Institute of Technology Honors Program (which I believe is slated to be folded into a university-wide Honors Program that may turn into an Honors College at the U of MN) may be our best academic and financial "safety" choice for our oldest son. But maybe not. I recall one forum participant who mentioned that the Ivy League and peer universities consider state university honors colleges with certain characteristics to be their strongest competition for ambitious students. </p>
<p>What do you think? What is a good set of characteristics to look for in a state university honors program/honors college. What characteristics of those programs are unappealing to you, even for an in-state student who has a decent chance at a full ride? What other colleges are worth a look besides each applicant's in-state university? All opinions and information appreciated. </p>
<p>Good luck to all of you awaiting admission news. Best wishes to the children who decide this year where to enroll. We are still three years off from playing the admission game for keeps, I think.</p>
<p>First Rule re:honors programs or colleges=run from anyone claiming to be an expert on this subject that catagorically states that an honors "college" is superior to an honors "program". Many,if not most,of the best are "programs"-and they have been around for decades. Next: Run from anyone,incl. Reader's Digest,that proclaims either ASU(Arizona State) or Univ. of Mississippi to have good honors colleges. Then there are several specific and non-specific to the student considerations,but I am tired now. I will,however,endorse honors only dorms and priority registration for courses. This is a fluid field,thus,one must stay on top of funding and administrative support issues.I am going to bed now,but feel free to PM me with specific questions.</p>
<p>^^^ Run from gross over-generalizations with no evidence substantiating incredibly fallacious claims.</p>
<p>I don't think there is any real unifying theme among honors college/programs as they can vary from only priority registration to a complete set of course offerings, separate advising, separate living quarters, and special instructors. Just research the university you are interested in and their program specifically.</p>
<p>For the record, ASU has a great honors COLLEGE that offers a great deal of benefits to any student within it, as well as having a very intelligent student body to begin with.</p>
<p>I see that the first two replies here, both of which I appreciate, have already exhibited what a debate coach like me would call "clash," in that they join issue on several specific points. I'll look forward to seeing more replies that develop these issues further. I'm trying to get a good sense of how good is good, and how good is good enough, among colleges in which a young person might study mathematics, physics, computer science, or various kinds of engineering. And I do think having an interesting peer group that can challenge a young learner to reach a higher level of developed ability is very important for a college student. </p>
<p>Please tell me more. </p>
<p>P.S. Good luck to anyone taking the ACT tomorrow.</p>
<p>Oooof. Half of the 400+ posts in the Prestige/Expensive - Good/Cheap thread are essentially about this. But I can summarize for you: Honors colleges are universally great and filled with two kinds of students -- those who turned down admissions offers from every college in the Ivy League, and those who would have received admissions offers from every college in the Ivy League had they cared to apply (but they didn't because the Honor Colleges are so great). Or maybe not, but some of those kids anyway. They offer unparalleled personal attention and networking opportunities undreamed of by the schlubs in Cambridge. Or maybe not quite, but at least pretty good. They are apparently free or next to it for all CC applicants and other residents of Lake Woebegone. They are why there are so few true middle-class kids at HYPS. (No sarcasm in that last sentence.)</p>
<p>I think you have to look at what, exactly, the programs/colleges/whatevers offer: housing, special courses, registration preference, better advising, research opportunities, special events, special degrees, extra requirements, free prizes in every box, etc., and then talk to kids at the school to find out what those things mean to them and whether they value them. For example, I gather the registration preference can be very valuable, if it really works, and handles the common problem of kids getting closed out of required or preferred courses in big majors.</p>
<p>Im going to the ASU honors college. I could have definitely applied to some top colleges...although I may not have gotten into a majority of them, there may have been a couple.</p>
<p>There are 13 NMF at my school, and 7 of them are going to the ASU's honors college full ride</p>
<p>ASU has had serious difficulties in the past few years including many students losing their scholarships. ASU,in response, lowered the required GPA to 3.25 from 3.5 to maintain the scholarship. ASU also added plus and minus grading to ease the burden on Barrett scholarship students. But many problems remain incl. too many footnote 18 & footnote 19 courses posing as "honors"courses. ASU just implemented a per semester surcharge on Barrett Honors students to help pay for the courses and scholarships. Barrett just doesn't get the funding it needs-even in light of the future building spree. Barrett officials make false claims,such as that they are the only honors college offering classes taught by law profs.Not true by a longshot. They have misstated the % of students who lost their scholarships. ASU is loved and praised because they give out very generous scholarships. But even if you retain your scholarship,you get a so-so education at best.Very,very few schools give out such generous scholarships so freely,especially with so little financial backing.</p>
<p>Businessguy: You should take your own advice. How do you support your wild generalizations? Check other threads for students who have been there and done that and clearly support my specific and general claims. I have no interest in ASU pro or con,but I bet you do! I am always surprised by the seemingly strong emotional reactions by some when discussion of "honors programs" or "honors colleges" arise. By the way,ASU is a tier 3 university and noone would regard the ASU students as great.It is largely an overcrowded commuter school for locals.</p>
<p>Businessguy: I would be interested in your method of rating honors colleges or programs. You seem to make declaretory generalizations without any substance or standards other than they gave me a scholarship so they're the best. Do you even consider factors such as whether a program or college is front end loaded or back end loaded?</p>
<p>For those who may not know about ASU Barrett Honors College Footnote 18 & footnote 19 courses,they are regular overcrowded course offerings with the typical avg. ASU students that "qualify" as honors courses by either breaking out weekly into a smaller honors discussion section or,worse,by a single student agreeing to do extra work for honors credit. Hardly meeting anybody's definition of an ''honors"couse,curriculum,program or college. These footnote courses are used to compensate for lack of funds. A NMF honors student does not benefit from being in an overcrowded lecture with unmotivated,third tier level students at one of the biggest party schools in the nation. Class size and class composition are two of the main concerns when evaluating any,whether honors or not, school.</p>
<p>Normal ASU students and honors ASU students are not the same thing, and not all classes are true honors, but not all are not either. </p>
<p>I would assume most honors students would have the AP/IB credit to bypass those "large lecture hall classes with normal students" anyway and move on to upper division courses quite easily. </p>
<p>You can talk about students losing their scholarships and party school all you want, but with a university the size of ASU you can find dedicated students if you try; and if you are willing to put in the work, a 3.25 is very manageable at a "third tier university".</p>
<p>The school as a whole is not very highly ranked and I wouldn't suggest going there for everything, but for certain programs it's definately a great opportunity (business and engineering come to mind). </p>
<p>You seem very adept at pointing out the disadvantages yet forgetting about the advantages of a program, good job giving an unbiased point of view! You speak of how knowledgable you are concerning honors colleges, yet must look up information over an hour to support your argument?</p>
<p>By the way, ad hominem statements that are completely false to begin with do you no good. I don't think ASU is the best because I got a scholarship, I think it's a good opportunity because I've researched it, spoken to students, and spoken to faculty. A fee of a few hundred dollars to help the honors college grow is well worth it - the students themselves supported it. </p>
<p>Do you even know about the massive honors complex they're constructing? That would appear to be financial backing...</p>
<p>For the record, Arizona State University is one of the worst major state universities in the country. OK, it may not be LSU or Mississippi State, but it is close. This is to say that one cannot get a decent education at ASU, but if there are other choices, they should be considered seriously. And the notion of an honors program there is, no matter what the experience, is iffy from a reputational perspective. It is almost as if the participants are crying out to let others know that they were in a minority of serious students at this huge and frankly mediocre school. Harsh this may be, but so be it.</p>
<p>"I am always surprised by the seemingly strong emotional reactions by some when discussion of "honors programs" or "honors colleges" arise."</p>
<p>Sorry, but you are being just as emotionally strong talking against these colleges. </p>
<p>"you get a so-so education at best."</p>
<p>An education is what you make of it. If you are just trying to skate by at ASU, then yes, you get an ok education. However, if you are involved, work hard, and implement your resources wisely, you could get a great education. Some of the Footnote 18 and 19 courses are simply just doing extra work, but in some classes, you can decide with your professor if you want to do something different. My sister is a Market Coordinator for the ASU community outreash program, and they are implementing new Footnote ideas, including investing a certain amount of time with a community program along with doing extra work within a class. You can't just generalize all of Barrett's college as being mediocre students that can keep their scholarships, seriously untrue. </p>
<p>And about the lecture halls, these are prevalent at every large university, and seeing as my sister is at ASU, she can attest that only a few gen. ed. and one or two higher courses were in large lecture halls, while the rest of her major specific and higher division courses have less than 40 or so students.</p>
<p>This is becoming a lively discussion. I am asking specifically about programs in "tech" majors (including math and computer science) rather than in nonquantitative majors. Thanks for the various replies.</p>
<p>Mam, for the record, care to back up your statement?</p>
<p>Have you been to ASU, LSU, or Mississippi and do you know anything about the three?</p>
<p>"For the record, <em>U of Del</em> is one of the worst major state universities in the country. OK, it may not be <em>U of MD</em> or <em>U of NH</em>, but it is close. This is to say that one cannot get a decent education at <em>U of Del</em>, but if there are other choices, they should be considered seriously. And the notion of an honors program there is, no matter what the experience, is iffy from a reputational perspective. It is almost as if the participants are crying out to let others know that they were in a minority of serious students at this huge and frankly mediocre school. Harsh this may be, but so be it."</p>
<p>See how easily a statement can be changed when you have no factual support?</p>
<p>I have been to Arizona State University. I have the T-shirt showing the school seal with the motto "Truth, Knowledge, a Great Tan" to prove it. </p>
<p>Do any of you do hiring for quantitative occupations? Which colleges are likely colleges for finding capable staff members in your organization?</p>
<p>tolkenadult- remember Minnesota has reciprocity with Wisconsin. Read the online catalog for UW- Madison, I can vouch for L&S honors classes son is taking and read that engineering considers its courses tough enough they don't offer honors sections/courses. Given the caliber of the rest of the student body these days, even the regular classes have a higher talent level than many other flagship/major public universities. Honors students in the sciences typically do research, a strong grad school gives better lab opportunities than a mediocre one- even a job doing scut work in a lab gives insight into the research world. </p>
<p>Consider this- why do some schools recruit honors students and others don't, yet the latter turn down many in their honors program as incoming freshmen due to the high numbers eligible compared to the spots available for the benefits it offers? Top honors programs/colleges don't need to advertise or offer scholarships to attract students. Consider this- many NMF's would rather attend a better school without getting a NMS than attend one just for the money; I wish schools could report the number of NM semifinalists that attend. An Honors program/college will reflect the rest of the university, even a school within a school is part of the whole campus and shares its flavor. I'm biased towards an honors program that doesn't feel the need to separate itself from the rest of the campus physically.</p>
<p>Well, wis75, Wisconsin's case is particularly interesting because Wisconsin's unified system of higher education essentially makes Madison an "honors campus" in a statewide system (of a fairly well educated state) and the tuition reciprocity rules mean Madison can draw strong students from neighboring states. That's an advantage some state flagship universities have more than others. I'll have to look at that example. </p>
<p>Are all the honors students in an honors dorm at Madison? Do the honors students have separate sections of core classes? Do they enjoy enrollment priority? </p>
<p>Thanks for mentioning that nearby example. To everyone else, what are some other state university examples I should consider, and why?</p>