statistics (the class)

Parents Forum
1

<p>D has never been very able in math-- she has a problem with visual/spatial skills, so geometry was a nightmare, and this year in pre-calc she is managing a B by dint of weekly after school help sessions. She's a junior, so her options for next year are: 1. no math, or 2. statistics. I am trying to guess how likely she is to be able to understand, and therefore do well in, a stats class. But I never had stats myself, so I don't really get the visual/spatial component of it. Graphs, maps, charts, anything having to do with spatial relations-- these are greek to D.... but formulas and calculations are not a problem. </p>

<p>So, I'm hoping some math whizzes here can tell me more? D will be a performing arts major, though she's interested in social sciences too. She feels almost guilty for not taking 4 years of math, and is worried about how it will look on her transcript-- but on the other hand, attempting a course she just doesn't have the wiring for would be extremely frustrating and pointless. </p>

<p>So, I'd love to hear any thoughts-- thank you!</p>

2

<p>D3 - also a performing arts major who was toying with a social sciences double major at the time and non-mathie - ended up taking AP Stat in lieu of calculus, thinking it would be easier. At her school, it turns out that the other people in Stat were all the ones who’d already done all of the other AP math courses and were taking this as their “easy” elective. Yikes!</p>

<p>In our case, she stuck with it, had a lot of tutoring from the teacher, squeaked through, and also ended up with 4 college math credits (it was a dual-enrollment course with the state flagship). As it turns out, it will cover her university math requirement.</p>

<p>D decided to hang in there because as a potential social scientist she knows that statistics are going to be an essential tool, and DH persuaded her that knowing statistics is part of being an informed citizen. YMMV.</p>

3

<p>Why take the math? If you are going to major in something that really doesn’t need the math, wouldn’t a more relevant class look better on her transcript?</p>

<p>I enjoy and do well in math. Statistics is not an “easy” subject. Not hard either, as long as you understand the math!!! Try something else.</p>

4

<p>My D (also a theater/non-math kid) took statistics this summer at our local CC and did fine. She did that because she had a major schedule conflict with math during the school year and knew she needed math to keep her schedule “rigorous”, fwiw. She felt pretty confident about the work and found it interesting.</p>

5

<p>I won’t discuss whether she needs stats. If she has difficulty in math AP Stats is probably not a good ide. But regular stats?</p>

<p>Pre-calc is not without some visual elements, so I’d say that a kid who can grind through that isn’t completely at a loss when it comes to graphs.</p>

<p>As far as basic, non-calc statistics, a lot of it can probably be understood merely by memorizing formulas and methods. However at a very elementary level you will come across histograms and charts that you need to interpret.</p>

<p>I will also admit that when it came to some hypothesis testing it helped me to visualize the distribution and where things fell. If you look here at Wikipedia they discuss t and z testing without a single chart.</p>

<p>[Student’s</a> t-test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student’s_t-test]Student’s”>Student's t-test - Wikipedia)
[Z-test</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-test]Z-test”>Z-test - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>You can do it this way, but it helped me to see the “two tailed t test” marked off on the normal curve. It was one of the few areas of math where the visual representation did make things easier for me.</p>

<p>I’d hate to advise somebody to get into something they can’t handle, but unless the graphical parts of Algebra II and Pre-cal were just impossible for your daughter she could probably handle statistics.</p>

6

<p>Are we talking about a high school level statistics class?</p>

<p>If that’s the case, I wouldn’t think it would be too difficult. Honestly, I’m sure the math isn’t too complicated at that level. If she can handle algebra, she can handle a low level stats class.</p>

<p>Mean, median, mode and the differences between measurements of central tendency. Some basic probability and odds calculations. There “might” be some permutations and combination questions covered…but that might be stretching it for a high school class.</p>

<p>I’m sure looking at graphs and histograms come into play, but it really shouldn’t be that complicated with a little bit of studying. The graphs you encounter in your first stats class are very simple. Histogram (bar graph), and maybe a simple linear regression model (line graph) would be as complex as it gets in that class.</p>

<p>The concepts might get confusing to somebody encountering statistics for the first time. Different types of sampling methods can be confusing, but they aren’t too difficult to understand with some studying. Figuring out what is a qualitative vs. quantitative variable can confuse many kids.</p>

<p>Hypothesis testing using t-tables and z-tables will probably be the most difficult concept they get to, if they cover it.</p>

7

<p>Thank you! The wikipedia entries are particularly helpful. I’m guessing she could grind through stats (NOT AP) and come out with a B, (a B that would partly come from the teacher’s recognizing her good faith effort and forgiving some things). </p>

<p>Which leaves me with Hpuck35’s question: why do it? She has a learning deficit that will make it very challenging without much likely satisfaction. She’d be trying to keep her schedule ‘rigorous’. She will be taking Music Theory, which won’t be easy either, but which she cares about and knows she needs. And AP Psych, AP Art History, and Shakespeare, and two choral classes. That leaves one class, which could be botany or piano or government. Her theater EC’s are a huge commitment. So that seems ‘rigorous’ enough to me. Of course I’m not an adcom…and I don’t believe in doing things just for the way they look…but then, of course, I worry!</p>

8

<p>Check with the schools she is considering. D toured a large state U yesterday. Today she got an email that said the university requires 4 yrs of HS Math.</p>

9

<p>Our school system requires 4 math credits to graduate fr. high sch. All our state u’s require four years of h.s. math. S2 took two maths his freshman year, then one in soph. and jr. year and didn’t take any math his senior year. Only one of the four was honors. He’s not a math guy.
He’s a college junior in a social sciences major. He did have to take one sem. of math in college to satisfy the gen. ed. requirement.</p>

<p>Is Stats her only choice for math ?</p>

10

<p>Our school only requires 3 maths-- her choices for next year would be stats or calculus (there’s probably Trig too but she can’t tell a triangle from a square!) Most places she’s thinking of applying require 3 years. I’d much rather she take it as a gen ed in college than let it weigh her grades down now, when it’s just never going to make a lot of sense to her. (I think I’m convincing myself-- thank you for the help!)</p>

11

<p>Will the Music Theory be an AP class? I’ve heard that’s brutal. I hope she is good at the ear training part, because the other part is rather mathematical.</p>

<p>I suggest checking the requirements for the colleges she’s interested in. Many colleges require 4 years of math.</p>

12

<p>

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<p>Yeah, the composition part usually requires you to pay close attention to rather complex patterns. For example, each beat has to be a specific chord in 4 voices. Each voice should only move one or two steps between beats; if two voices are 4 or 5 steps apart, they should move in opposite directions. There are other rules to follow too, and creativity is often secondary.</p>

<p>In many ways it’s much more spatially complex than statistics. In the latter, you will have to recognize things like [url=<a href=“http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/skew.jpg]skew[/url”>http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/skew.jpg]skew[/url</a>], [url=<a href=“http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/OutlierScatterplot_1000.gif]outliers[/url”>http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/OutlierScatterplot_1000.gif]outliers[/url</a>], or [url=<a href=“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Bimodal_geological.PNG]multimodality[/url”>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Bimodal_geological.PNG]multimodality[/url</a>]. Being able to picture various distributions also helps, but I think if you can remember what each type is intended to model and develop a certain intuition with the summary statistics, it’s fine.</p>

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<p>It’s not AP Music theory-- I’m sure it will be very challenging though! But it’s important to her so the challenge is exciting. Stats-- not so much. Well, we’ll see.</p>

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<p>Just for what it’s worth: my daughter had only 3 years of high school years – actually, only TWO years, but through the 3rd year (algebra 2) in the normal sequence. She did not have trig or pre-calc, and certainly nothing beyond. This was because she did a foreign exchanged for a semester junior year, and was not allowed to enter a math class mid-year at her high school; the following year she needed to squeeze in a lot of courses to meet graduation requirements, given the disruption from the following year. Math just didn’t fit.</p>

<p>She did have a strong record for foreign language study, and applied to colleges with a clear bent toward foreign language study and/or linguistics or international relations. </p>

<p>She was accepted at her reach schools, including Barnard, Chicago, & UC Berkeley. </p>

<p>I think that colleges look at the high school record in the context of the students’ professed interests and proposed course of study. A prospective math or engineering major, or even pre-med, might be hurt by a record of only 3 years of high school math – but the application of the prospective performing arts major might actually be enhanced if during senior year the student dropped math and opted for something – even an elective – more likely to support the proposed major. Of course her prospective colleges like seeing students that challenge themselves, but unless the school specifically states that 4 years of high school math are required or “strongly” recommended, I don’t think your d. needs another year of math.</p>

<p>I know it goes against all CC lore, mythology, & common wisdom… but my d’s record stands for itself. My d. also had very weak standardized scores in math … so its not like there was some sort of compensatory factor. Rather, she presented as a lopsided candidate to colleges that weren’t going to require her to take “hard” math courses for her proposed majors.</p>

<p>I think in your daughter’s case, with the music theory, Shakespeare, art history & choral classes – she’s got the kind of senior year schedule that is much more appropriate for performing arts majors. So if she decides to opt for piano… I’d say go for it. But she’s already got a very strong artsy profile, so if she wants botany or government – that would be fine too. [Actually – government is a required course to graduate in my state (I think) – so I’d encourage her to take that course, because I think its one of those things that’s essential to good citizenship. But that’s just my bias.]</p>

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<p>Thanks so much Calmom-- that confirms my sense of things too. And it is so great to hear of a lopsided kid getting into such wonderful schools-- gives me hope. Congratulations to your D, and thank you for helping me think this out.</p>

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<p>Gwen - I have a friend whose D has a visual/spatial LD. She had huge problems with geometry also. In her senior year, she took trig one semester and stats the other (the basic stats course, not AP). She got through trig first semester, but about a month into the stats semester, she begged her parents to let her drop math. Her teacher was in full agreement. She just couldn’t do it without spending inordinate amounts of time, and this was a second semester senior (i.e., she didn’t want to spend inordinate amounts of time) who didn’t need math for her college major. They contacted the college she already knew she’d be attending and they were fine with it. So she dropped it, but it was too late to pick up any other course. In retrospect, she would have been better off never taking stats and choosing a non-math course that played more to her strengths.</p>

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<p>Thank you, beth’s mom-- I think that says it all! Thanks so much for posting.</p>

18

<p>Ah, this thread speaks to me. Our older kid breezed through math classes and took AP Statistics senior year as an easy class. Less mathy DD is now in 11th grade. In middle school she got on the math fast track (Alg. 1 in 7th, Geometry in 8th, Alg. 2 in 9th, Honors Precal in 10th) purely on her fastidious notebooks and beautiful projects. She’s in AP Statistics this year and it’s going okay. We have a tutor available if needed, and she’s not been needed yet.</p>

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<p>^^ Yes, I regret D’s fast-tracking in middle-school! If she’d just taken the regular course, she’d be in Algebra 2 now, pre-calc next year and this wouldn’t be such a problem!</p>

20

<p>Check out the “Head First” books published by O’Reilly and Associates, including the book “Head First Statistics.” Product description:</p>

<p>"Wouldn’t it be great if there were a statistics book that made histograms, probability distributions, and chi square analysis more enjoyable than going to the dentist? Head First Statistics brings this typically dry subject to life, teaching you everything you want and need to know about statistics through engaging, interactive, and thought-provoking material, full of puzzles, stories, quizzes, visual aids, and real-world examples.</p>

<p>Whether you’re a student, a professional, or just curious about statistical analysis, Head First’s brain-friendly formula helps you get a firm grasp of statistics so you can understand key points and actually use them. Learn to present data visually with charts and plots; discover the difference between taking the average with mean, median, and mode, and why it’s important; learn how to calculate probability and expectation; and much more.</p>

<p>Head First Statistics is ideal for high school and college students taking statistics and satisfies the requirements for passing the College Board’s Advanced Placement (AP) Statistics Exam. With this book, you’ll:</p>

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    </code></pre>

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<p>Browse through either a hard-copy in a bookstore or via Amazon’s “Look Inside” feature on the book’s amazon page. Chances are they’re unlike any math text you’ve seen before.</p>

<p>There are several “Heads First” books that cover various topics in computer science/engineering and math/science. I think they’re terrific (speaking as someone who does this stuff for a living).</p>