<p>I agree with 205mom,lcoulter32724, and cellomom6 that the stats are helpful especially if one is trying to budget and juggle auditions. We did cut several long shots off the list when son auditioned due to time and finances. </p>
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By definition everyone doesn’t get a “good scholarship” or the schools would be like those discount department stores who put ridiculously inflated stickers on everything but always give deep discounts. </p>
<p>Some people pay full; some pay less. And then there’s financial aid, which is tied to financial need.</p>
<p>Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see how acceptance stats are related to tuition discounts-- aka, merit/talent awards.</p>
<p>Perhaps one of the most important thing you can do before deciding where to apply is to try to determine how competitive your son or daughter is in the global applicant pool! The better they are, the more merit money they’ll get, and the better their chance of getting in at the more competitive programs. If you’re applying to Harvard but don’t know your kid’s grades or test scores it won’t help much to know how selective it is. For all you know your kid is in the top 1% of applicants…</p>
<p>@stradmom, I think that is one of the best posts ever. I try to explain the audition process to people whose kids aren’t musicians or actors and how it is essentially one large variable, but your post sums it up perfectly. I may have to print that out and keep a copy in my wallet and read it to people to explain. Cheers to you!</p>
<p>I think the admission rates vary a lot because some schools consider openings based on how many slots there are based on both grad and undergrad current students, so openings depend on how many have graduated and moved on from all levels in a particular school, and particular studio. It’s complicated.</p>
<p>Most of us know informally which schools are most selective. Word of mouth, reputation, listening and reading etc. And while selectivity may mirror quality, not always, so the most useful information is really about teachers, aesthetics, and other intangibles, as well as curriculum, performance opportunities and so on.</p>
<p>I can understand that unnecessary disappointment and expense might be avoided with stats, but most people have enough information in other ways, and, again, stats will shift around a lot more for conservatories because the number of openings varies, unlike a college or university.</p>
<p>p.s. I never knew my kids’ grades or scores when they applied to colleges either!</p>
<p>I guess what I really meant was for those that do not qualify for financial aid, stats don’t mean anything if the school won’t even give you merit regardless. Although I’d like to see stats and typical merit aid (some schools give a standard rate and others are more variable). At least that’s what some insiders have told me through pm.</p>
<p>The stress and expense of auditions should also be avoided, perhaps, if there is a good chance of not being able to pay regardless of admission, though many of us will still take the chance :)</p>
<p>Ha Compmom - and there I used Harvard as my example! I’m sure there must have been some reason you thought she had a chance of getting in, as she did! Asides from you knowing she is the most remarkable person ever, of course.</p>
<p>Cellomom6 - merit aid is definitely going to vary from student to student, instrument to instrument, and from year to year. The standard advice on this forum is to apply to the schools where your sons and daughters really want to go, and wait until you see how everything plays out in the end. I know at Bard Conservatory merit aid can vary from 1/4 tuition to a completely full ride. And on the same instrument. However, usually, but not always, there is some financial need from the applicant.</p>
<p>Echoing SpiritManager’s earlier comment, try to find where your child stands relative to the competition. The present teacher, if he/she regularly sends students to conservatories, can be a wealth of information. And if your present teacher hasn’t much experience, find one for the last 1-2 years of high school who does. We relied heavily on S’s teacher for recommendations about where to apply and whose studio to request, and he steered us right where we needed to go.</p>
<p>There are a lot of axes to the admissions process, and the admissions stats do tell you certain things. For example, with Juilliard, their yield curve (how many kids accept once they are admitted (is around 93% from figures admissions gave one year at a seminar), and what that tells you is that a lot of people want to go there, and when they get in, make every effort to try and be able to do it…doesn’t mean the school is always worth it or the best place for those who accept, but it tells you a lot about the hold the school has on kids imaginations…</p>
<p>The really useful stats might be having stats on particular studios and in a typical year, what percent of those applying get a slot in that studio. Obviously that number is going to fluctuate, but over a longer period, it will tell a lot about desirability and toughness of getting into it. For example, to use a famous example (with hypothetical numbers), Itzak Perlman only has a handful of students at Juilliard, and prob only admits 1 or 2 students a year to study with him directly (I don’t have exact numbers, but it is small), yet a lot of people put him down when they apply, so if you looked at his yield, probably would make the overall yield at Juilliard look huge…likewise, at NEC or CIM, there are violin studios where I guarantee you the admission into some studios is probably 3 or 4% of those who apply, unlike the 33%…</p>
<p>To be honest, if you talk to people who have been around, a lot of this information is out there, albeit not in statistical form. Find anyone who knows a program, and they will tell you about the studios and how hard they are to get into, which is really the important information. </p>
<p>And yeah, it can be hard to decide where to go. I agree with Spirit manager, in that knowing how well you play can factor into the decision of where to go. Put it this way, if you are applying into one of the top strings programs, who draw kids from all over the world, it is very likely that merit aid is going to be very hard to come by, simply because the typical level of playing is so high that merit aid becomes very difficult, unless you really are in the stratosphere, and from what I have seen in this world, merit aid tends to be allocated based on financial need as well. It also depends on the program, some really good programs are trying to boost themselves up, so they tend to offer much better merit aid then some of those 'considered highly. One of the reasons to be careful about trying to cherry pick a program on possiblity of merit aid is you never know, a teacher could really like your kid and try and fight for more aid, if you are from some demographic underrepresented (for example, you are from rural Mississippi), it could work out to your advantage, you never know, just like there is no sure admit . Friend of my son’s got into a top studio at NEC with a huge aid/merit package, got into another big program, got rejected by Juilliard…go figure <em>shrug</em>. </p>
<p>All of this is so dependent upon the instrument and voice type that I don’t see how trying to assign numbers to it is useful. There will always be more violin majors in a conservatory because there are more of them needed in orchestras. In the same vein, there are more spots for horn players than for bassoonists, and more violas than trombones, and so on. But as musicprnt has pointed out, there are extremely selective studios at each school where the prof may only take 1 new student each year, so while the overall acceptance rate might look to be a double digit number, if you want to study with “Prof A” for example and you’re not his choice for this year, then those larger numbers don’t apply to you. But that doesn’t mean that a student should be intimidated by that and put the instrument back in the case and “settle” for another teacher. I know of a student who plays one of the most competitive instruments and who was told that the top teacher wasn’t going to have any room in the studio this coming year. Nevertheless, the student did a regional audition and was accepted into that teacher’s studio.I know for a fact that nothing had changed in the makeup of the studio- no one had decided to leave who had chosen to stay on for further study and no one had failed and been asked to leave- so he heard something in that audition that was intriguing, so he took on an additional student. It doesn’t happen often, but it does occur.</p>
<p>VP programs muddy the waters even further because there comes a time when they have to make real attempts to “balance” the voice types. Bottom line is that you need male voice types to put on an opera (even if you double-up on the bit parts!) and you’ll also have to have different types of mezzos, too. And then all of those sopranos have to be spread across the spectrum from light lyrics to lyrics and dramatics -and there are further breakdowns within each type. All of these get further “weeded” when it comes to graduate school, so the numbers of students decrease although the number initially applying can remain high.,so you’ll then see a massive drop in that accepted vs applied number. Sadly, it’s not at all unusual now to see students rejected from every grad school to which they apply, because there are so many being spewed out of the undergrad programs. Unlike their instrumental peers, singers take longer to develop- the larger voices might have to sit out a year or two until they “grow into their voice” and some who seemed very promising at the age of 18 just don’t develop as had been hoped.</p>
<p>I’d bet that there isn’t a parent of a voice student at these upper levels who hasn’t wished-if even for just a moment- that our kids had taken up swimming or ski racing or anything where the results can be quantified by a clock and not a panel of people who all seems to be hearing different things at the same time!</p>
<p>I realize merit aid varies. But I’m trying to balance what is typically given such as at unt and a what if. My son will still apply at a few financial reach schools just in case. If he can get his act score up, that will help too. I do think stats help, but my point it needs to be taken into consideration of everything else. Fsu and unt are smart. They tell you exactly what they do for music admits and I’m sure they offer more for academic or even music, but the baseline is manageable financially for us even without academic merit. That is very attractive as a parent. It helps that the teachers are good of course.</p>
<p>I don’t think there is any way you can tell where you’ll land on the merit aid scale at an elite conservatory The results are pretty much all over the place and unpredictable. The only exception is Colburn, which is completely free. UNT and FSU are state schools. If you need that kind of published scale for academic merit aid, stick to state schools. Add IU Jacobs and Temple, and a few others to the mix. You will will not be able to predict merit aid based on audition. </p>
<p>I mean some schools publish they offer in state tuition to music school admits. That is predictable. But you guys have stated Julliard does not give merit aid unless there is financial need. It would be a waste of time paying for an audition if we can’t even afford tuition. </p>
<p>If you can’t afford the tuition, isn’t that the definition of financial need?</p>
<p>It is great, of course, to have some financial safeties in the mix, but since for music, unless it’s a non-auditioned program, there are no admissions safeties,so it’s difficult to follow the advice on the other forums of always having a true safety. I made my son, because of my own anxiety, not his, apply to a non-auditioned program where I knew he’d get close to a free ride because he was so far at the top of their applicant pool academically and if he’d had to go there, he would have made it work and enjoyed it because it was an out of the box alternative. If you need a safety for your son, that’s what I would recommend. Usually the application is incredibly simple, too.</p>
<p>We have a local lac that will be his safety. Fafsa says we can afford it. But we say we cant. We are financially fortunate but unable to pay for 5 kids at 50k a year tuition even if it’s spread out. It’s our choice not to afford it I guess. </p>
<p>If you have five students in college, your financial need will increases and your EFC will decrease. Unless they’re incredibly spread out, and never overlapping in school at the same time. So you’ll want to take into account that the financial aid might increase in future years as other of your children start attending college, too.</p>
<p>This topic I feel extremely passionate about. I am not a vocal coach, I have just been introduced to classical voice in the last 2 years and can tell you whether I think something is pleasantly sounding to me. Many of you have far more experience and exposure and to that I value you posts immensely.
I am completely confident of the musical theater auditionprocess, but novice to classical music. The one key thing I think I learned in the undergraduate audition process was the value of exposure via lessons and competitions in the region where you are audition. Everything I read regarding lessons was related to evaluating whether it was the right fit…not the networking value. May have had the same results, but at least it wouldn’t be a question. Kind of like the audition regionally or locally.<br>
Not sure if it’s the same way for the graduate process, but would love to know what my d needs to be doing now to prep. And please don’t say the obvious, like learn everything you can. If it’s become an expert in music theory fine, if it’s master your interview skills, great, if it’s meet yearly with the teacher for lessons so they can witness your growth awesome…what are they? And yes I realize they aren’t fail safe. It would eliminate a second guess opportunity.
That being said I am a student of statistics. I understand that they are in no way hard facts. They are data to be interpreted. Not absolutely, but independently based on other variables. However they are indicative. For example, Curtis is very transparent in their acceptance statistics and data and from what I’ve seen most “top tier” schools are somewhat “transparent” in acceptance odds. All I would want to know is number of applicants per instrument, number of offers extended, and number of students who attended per year.
I completely understand Mezzo’smama description of sub levels within the vocal instruments so that would be one of the yearly independent variables. I also have heard that fach is something that may evolve over time so that is another independent variable. I’m sure there are many more.<br>
For me the issue isn’t the top tier versus the local jc. The issue is when you may be on abubble. My observations (disclaimer:which may be completely off base) are that top tier doesn’t acknowledge or value future potential. They value documented, known, established talent. No problem with that, but I bet the statistics would show it. Second tier may value potential talent, but that may be a tie breaker and a factor in a non-acceptance. Third tier and all other schools seek potential and are willing to pay for it. But than again maybe what I understand to be potential and what a trained musician views as potential are totally different things-yet another independent variable. But I would know to not apply to julliard and Curtis…is depaul considered top tier…what about Boston’s conservatory…is it second tier…I know it’s not jc. I know boco is really good for musical theater, but …Ughhh!!!
My point is I that I may have extracted that from the statistics I’m asking for. I’ve know several 5.0 valedictorians with exceptional profiles who are not accepted to Ivy League schools for whatever arbitrary reason. I’ve known many well qualified applicants who did not receive job offers because other arbitrary reasons and some who have been accepted. Those are the independent variables.<br>
I don’t understand what is so costly or detrimental about keeping and publishing the statistics I asked for? I bet that the department heads know how many people applied and how many were accepted. I know unequivocally that cmu musical theater accepts less than 1%. Does it mean that you don’t have potential or you are not talented if not accepted. No, of course not. But it gives you your “lightening strike chances”. It says. “Apply here, but you might want to apply somewhere else as well”.
Maybe it wouldn’t matter if the cost to apply was $0. But having just paid over $2400 to apply, I would like to make smarter choices in the future that data along with your valuable insight in the process would help me…or at the very least make me feel more confident.
Love to all, all opinions are valuable and yet another independent variable to consider:)</p>
<p>While it is true that more kids =more financial need re fasfa, almost everyone I know including my own family felt that what fasfa says you can afford vs what you feel you can actually afford is often a huge mismatch .This seems especially true for those in the middle or even upper middle of the income spectrum. I definitely can understand wanting some idea of what talent scholarships might be possible. Your child’s teacher can certainly be one source of info on this as well as the student’s over all level, I agree. But of course even there if you are a popular instrument or voice type ( soprano or flute for example) there is a huge element of luck involved, along with all the hard work all our kids put in 
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