<p>Just like last year it is breathtaking to see the incredible stats of many of the students not admitted to the Ivy League schools in the early round. (denied or deferred). It's one thing to understand it, but another to see it in print.</p>
<p>I agree. I bet that if we read the whole application of many of these kids, we'd be just as confused.
I believe it when admissions officers tell parents and students that they could have accepted two equally qualified classes. Further evidence of this is seen when the kids who are rejected by Stanford are accepted by Harvard, or deferred and waitlisted at Brown and accepted by Yale. Kids need to realize that it's not always about them as applicants. Some of these schools do wish they could take everyone they feel would be a good fit for their school, but they can't.</p>
<p>I went to take a look at Pton ED board... To tell you the truth, I was horrified. I am not surprised when yet another kid with a set of "800-800-800-4.0-1st- AP scholar - perfect essays - great recs ..." gets deferred. But when in addition the kid publishes a book, does research, plays piano AND has won a scholarship (no need in finaid) - I'm stumped. And there are several postings like this one in that very short ED thread... I just don't know what to say.</p>
<p>There was a similar student on the Harvard thread who was a Westinghouse Finalist. Egads! What are the ones who got in like?</p>
<p>This marks my fourth cycle of watching acceptances/deferrals/rejections. It is because of this experience that I think many of the ad hoc responses to "What Are My Chances?", whether explicit or implicit, are waaaaay too certain and generally way too optimistic. I cringe when I see someone tell a student, "You're in!" when discussing some of these most competitive schools. I feel bad for these students, for many of whom this is the first negative response they've ever received.</p>
<p>The flip side to some of those rejected is that some are accepted who don't walk on water, let alone create the water first...they're merely very fine students. As someone said: someone passes by with a tray of hors d'oeuvres at a party...why did you take <em>this</em> one instead of <em>that</em> one? For some students, I'm convinced it's a probabilistic rather than deterministic process...that if you submitted all the applications to the same admissions office, but with the names blacked out, at least half the students admitted would be from that allegorical "second" or even "third" class. Go figure.</p>
<p>(signed) Survivor Parent, 2004 Yale EA Massacre</p>
<p>But I guess this means that non-Ivy pretty good schools will have some very talented freshmen this time around.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I went to take a look at Pton ED board... To tell you the truth, I was horrified. I am not surprised when yet another kid with a set of "800-800-800-4.0-1st- AP scholar - perfect essays - great recs ..." gets deferred. But when in addition the kid publishes a book, does research, plays piano AND has won a scholarship (no need in finaid) - I'm stumped.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why? I would never assume an international candidate will be accepted. </p>
<p>Also, you have to read between lines in a way that is difficult to do from a laundry list post. We don't know what "doing research" or "publishing a book" means.</p>
<p>Also, sometimes the recs blow a kid out of the water. For example, writing on a teacher rec that a UPenn applicant is "the most business-minded student I've had in my career" is NOT what these colleges want to hear.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I cringe when I see someone tell a student, "You're in!" when discussing some of these most competitive schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes. I cringe at the horrible advice that these kids give each other in the "What are my Chances?" threads. It is clear from the "What are my Chances?" threads and the responses that kids really don't understand what colleges are looking for. They invariably think that making the "stats and ECs" look impressive is the key. When I look at these laundry lists, I go straight to the ECs and see if there is something that strikes me as "hmmm....that's an interesting thing to do..."</p>
<p>I only told two Swarthmore ED applicants this year that I thought they were a lock. One had all the stats -- third in her class, above average SATs, a very interesting EC (five years as a "lawyer" in her community's teen court sentencing first offender juveniles with a recommendation letter from the presiding judge in the program), and was a third generation quadruple legacy. The other was an Af-Am, top 5% class rank at a good large public high school, top 1% of all Af-Am SAT takers in the country, flown up by the school for the minority recruitment weekend. I wouldn't have said lock for the second applicant, but the guaranteed yield in the ED round changes the odds, IMO.</p>
<p>Pyewacket, but it's been like that for many years, about the non-Ivy colleges having some pretty talented students in their incoming classes. Demographic overflow just means there are a few more.</p>
<p>non-Ivy schools always have some very talented freshmen -- not all very talented applicants believe that the ivies are the right place for them in the first place. and in fact if more very talented freshmen saw beyond just the issue of "ivy" they might sort themselves out more appropriately to begin with in the application process.</p>
<p>just as frustrating as the "what are my chances" postings, are the postings that ask, "which ivy should i apply to" -- the assumption right off the bat is that they will be applying ivy and they just need to figure out which one -- rather than first figuring out what it is they really want in a school and then seeing if any of the ivy's happen to satisfy that.</p>
<p>the ivies do have a lot of offer, but sometimes i think many applicants (certainly not all) focus on the ivy label more than what the school really has to offer them. it might be nice to think that the schools can figure that out in an application process and that this might explain some of their decisions, but i'm not convinced that is the case.</p>
<p>The reason I seldom post in the "What are my chances" board any longer are that some kids actually don't want to be told the truth. Admission to the most selective schools is never a "lock" for anyone until the fat envelope arrives.</p>
<p>I like that as a tag line, carolyn, "It's not over until the fat envelope arrives..."</p>
<p>interesteddad:
[quote]
I would never assume an international candidate will be accepted.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But Pton does accept some internationals, doesn't it? :) And they can't all be IMO winners.. and this one did not ask for money...</p>
<p>
[quote]
you have to read between lines in a way that is difficult to do from a laundry list post. We don't know what "doing research" or "publishing a book" means.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, the book could be self-published, for all we know... but anyway - that particular list did not strike me as a "laundry list". And another kid, who had a research internship and volunteered in an orphanage... and another...</p>
<p>That's the point, I guess. If I only saw one kid with exceptional stats AND "hooks" being deferred - I would not be surprised. Especially if she's an international (they might have a couple of better candidates from the same country). But so many of them... It's really sad. And kind of surprising, I don't think I saw something like that last year. I had the impression that really good "hooks" worked.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But Pton does accept some internationals, doesn't it?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes. But, international admissions is very much feeder school driven. The colleges rely on existing relationships with schools that have a proven track record of recommending successful applicants. How could it be any other way? The colleges and university adcoms can only visit so many international schools. Furthermore, I think the major feeder schools around the world have very good guidance counselors and the colleges know they are effective in matching up the right kids with the right colleges.</p>
<p>I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of international admissions. That's why I never offer an opinion about odds. If it's a feeder school I've heard of, I usually recommend that the student talk to their guidance counselor, who will be in the best position to make a guesstimate.</p>
<p>As for "hooks", yes they are effective. But, they have to be communicated effectively. That usually means an essay that brings the activity to life and shows some personality. Just glancing through the MIT deferrals, I see kid after kid say "nothing special" when it comes to hooks or ECs. Why would you apply to MIT (or Harvard or Princeton) if you had "nothing special" beyond test scores on your application? The number one thing you have to have to get into any of these schools is "something special" -- and I don't mean necessarily a national award. They are looking for applicants who fill an institutional priority and/or bring something special to the table.</p>
<p>A year later, those stats will be history, and basically irrelevant to the rest of the student's life. The old ECs will be filed away in a drawer. Those extra two classes of Yale applicants who were just as qualified as those who were accepted will be in school somewhere else, with dozens of other schools as the beneficiaries, and the differences between HYPSAWS, etc. and other schools getting continually narrower (except, perhaps, in the median income of the families they come from.)</p>
<p>"Some of these schools do wish they could take everyone they feel would be a good fit for their school, but they can't."</p>
<p>No they don't. I doubt adreps have too many cases of buyers' remorse. ;)</p>