Stay in Canada or go to US?

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>We are starting to think about college in our house. Our son, going into grade 11, was born in the US and is a US citizen, but he has grown up in Canada. </p>

<p>We often thought he might benefit from attending a US school, especially if he wants to pursue a career in the US. Also there is a certain bias on our part that it would be better (prestige? recognition? job opportunities?). And he grew up assuming he'd apply to US schools. But now we are almost doing an about face, and focusing on Canada. And I would love more varied perspectives from you all. </p>

<p>Our son is very bright (scores around the 95-99th percentile in prior IQ testing), and has gotten a great education. He has a 90% average at a very competitive highschool, he is intellectually very curious, reads a tonne (30 books this summer so far), and is a very happy, social kid who loves hanging out with his friends. But he is not on his way to the Ivy League, if you know what I mean. He not a "leader", he's never sought or won awards, he never works too hard at anything nor wants to, and his many extra-curricular activities are just fun hobbies and average level sports. I don't mean this to sound negative, as we love him just as he is. I just believe he doesn't fit the profile of students getting into top US schools. </p>

<p>So now we are wondering if we should just stay focused in Canada. He wouldn't have to worry about SATs, essays or his extracurriculars (the whole application process is about 15 minutes). If he attended U of Toronto or McGill for example (two schools he's expressed interested in), they would just look at his grade 12 marks in his top five academic subjects. </p>

<p>And now of course, the tuition difference is weighing heavily on us (funny how we didn't seem to care years ago but now that it's more real, it's a serious difference!). To give you an example, McGill and Toronto tuition for us would be about $5,000. </p>

<p>These are good schools. Maybe not the cache of Harvard or Stanford, but then he'd not getting into those types of US schools anyway! I think the schools he would get into in the US wouldn't be particularly more prestigious or academically better, but maybe I'm wrong? As I write this, I can feel my own bias emerging, but maybe I'm missing something. Any words of wisdom you can offer would be appreciated.</p>

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<p>we live in the us (still canadian citizens) and my son has dual citizenship and we are actually putting canadian schools on his list due to tuition costs, including mcgill! seems to me that mcgill, utoronto etc would be in the same league as the types of schools you think he might be interested in.</p>

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<p>I’m an American high school student, I am considering going the other way! UofT and McGill are both world-class (as is Waterloo for some subjects), and there are many other great schools up (down for me) in Canada (UBC, Queen’s, etc.)</p>

<p>From my research, I think there are only three main reasons to consider the US:</p>

<p>a) he wants a small, liberal arts college (doesn’t sound like it)
b) he wants to spend time in another country (although, after talking to people who have lived in both places, it doesn’t sound to me like that much of a difference - going from BC to Quebec or vice-versa would probably be just as significant)
c) he can compete at HYPSM and the like (doesn’t sound like it)</p>

<p>You have top-notch universities, relatively low-stress admissions, and cheap tuition. What’s not to love (assuming that he is happy staying in Canada)?</p>

<p>The only thing that worries me is this quote:

Either he will need to change at university or you should consider applying to less selective Canadian schools, because this attitude probably won’t cut it at UofT or McGill. Both are known for very harsh curves and tough classes.</p>

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<p>DS applied to Waterloo from US in the year that Canada had a double cohort. He never got an answer. </p>

<p>However he did go to UT for grad school and thoroughly enjoyed it. He liked the international atmosphere that he was accustomed at CMU. Would still be in Toronto for phd if he didn’t find a position. A very near thing.</p>

<p>US not very cosmospolitan.</p>

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<p>McGill is a great school and I know quite a few students in the New York/Connecticut area that have opted to go there in the past few years instead of some outstanding schools that they had been accepted to in the US. My D brought up McGill this evening at dinner as a possible option, further confusing me with her choices. I would not leave Canada to come to the US unless it was a top school.</p>

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<p>I went to McGill and got a great education there. Went to grad school in the US and moved here, so our kids are dual citizens. DS#1 applied to both US and Canadian schools. I agree with BobbyCT says, paying the mega extra bucks for a US school is worth it only if it’s a top school. </p>

<p>McGill/U of T, etc. are often compared to premier US public universities, like U Mich. You have big freshman intro classes but smaller classes as an upper classman. Canadian universities generally have less handholding–less advising, etc. Although smaller schools like Mount Allison may be more nurturing, if that’s what your son wants/needs.</p>

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<p>Thank you for all your ideas so far. It seems to be in line with the things we have been discussing at home. There is reassurance in hearing it from so many strangers.</p>

<p>I agree too with the poster on the issue of not wanting to work too hard. I hope he matures out of it. I have heard McGill at least is tough and have pointed this out to him. I hang my hopes on the fact that his highschool is incredibly challenging and competitive, but he seems to do well (the ability part is relatively easy, and so he always does ‘just enough’ to get the A, no matter how demanding the particular course or teacher).</p>

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<p>Another dual citizenship family here. My Ds have lived in both countries, although longer in Canada than the U.S. Two chose U.S. schools and the other three chose U of T. All were happy with their choices and I can assure you that a kid who is a good student, who is diligent and independent, will get an education at U of T that is every bit as good as a U.S. college. </p>

<p>As has been mentioned, the application process for Canadian schools is easy compared to the hoops students have to jump through for U.S. schools. This is part of the Canadian philosophy of providing education, at a reasonable cost, for qualified students. To get in to U of T may not be all that difficult, but to stay in, and to do well, is not easy. It’s true that there is not a lot of hand-holding and coddling going on, which too many kids these days seem to need when they enter college. If your son is not interested in working hard, I would definitely not recommend U of T for him because he will flounder for sure. For most schools, actually, he should be ready to live and study independently. If he’s not, then I’d recommend a gap year.</p>

<p>What does he want to study?</p>

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<p>If your son read 30 books this summer of his own volition and has the grades that you indicate and he’s not doing the “leadership leadership leadership” then he is already in a small and select group of students, i.e., those who read for fun, enjoy thinking and analyzing and reading, and isn’t doing high school thinking mainly about competing to get into the best possible set of colleges etc.</p>

<p>Good for him! He’ll do fine in college and may well surprise you and be a pleasure for his professors (provided he continues to do the reading, that is). </p>

<p>Toronto and McGill are both world class universities. There are a number of other great schools in Canada too, as other posters have pointed out. He can come to the US for grad school… or to the UK, who knows?</p>

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<p>If he is not a Canadian citizen, will he be eligible for Canadian tuition - or will he have to pay international tuition fees?</p>

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<p>Our son is most interested in majoring in chemistry and especially excels at math and science. Ironically, English is his weakest subject despite reading so voraciously. </p>

<p>He will be fine on his own and really wants to go away to college. Always been frustratingly (for his parents), very independent and self-sufficient (and over the years he’s had to train us to back off). He is the sort of kid that does his own laundry, has taught himself to cook, and insists on using an alarm clock instead of us to wake him. </p>

<p>He has done well in a really challenging highschool (by Canadian standards at least). It is selective, with academically serious kids, they routinely perform the highest in the province on provincial exams, and they have a reputation for working their students very hard. He hovers around the top 10% in terms of grades. </p>

<p>Basically I think he is just not achievement-oriented (at least yet?). He never got a kick out of collecting achievements in scouts, or winning a trophy in science fair, or moving up in rank at school. He does well in school because he is bright and likes to learn, but he would be the last kid in class to calculate his GPA or join a club or enter a competition for the credit. The positive side of that coin, I guess, is he is pretty true to himself, he isn’t stressed, and his esteem isn’t tied to how well he does on exams or how he stacks up to others. </p>

<p>He enjoys a lot of subjects and activities for their own sake, can do as well as he wants to in school, so we think he can handle university after his highschool experience. But my point about his motivation is that he just doesn’t have that “umph” or ‘drive’ that comes with wanting to be the best or do things necessary to get into a top US college. This I think explains, at least partly, why he doesn’t have the profile for applying to a top US school.</p>

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<p>He is Canadian now too so would qualify for cheap tuition. Good point.</p>

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<p>Lurking, it sounds like your S is a great kid and he’ll likely do well in university. Best of luck to him.</p>

<p>Re: the comments about being a Canadian citizen determining tuition. It doesn’t matter. Citizenship isn’t required. Permanent residence is.</p>

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<p>If I were in your place I’d look into US schools - but focus on Canadian ones. McGill, Toronto, UBC all offer world-class education at a very enticing price :slight_smile: Unless your son has his heart set on studying in the US, or there are compelling academic reasons to consider particular American schools, go Canadian. Many American employers, as well as American graduate programs, know and respect a good Canadian education.</p>

<p>BTW, I know three young Americans who turned down acceptances to very good schools here, decided to go to Canada instead.</p>

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<p>If you qualify for Canadian rates, that’s huge.</p>

16

<p>Unless he’d be going to a top US school (think HYPSM), I’d definitely recommend he stay in Canada. U of T and McGill are both comparable to very good American schools, but the tuition difference is <em>huge</em>. Whatever he decides, good luck to him!</p>

17

<p>Thank you all for your informed opinions. I can’t tell you how very helpful it has been to read this thread. Is there a place on this board for Canadian schools (other than the sections for specific schools?). I wasn’t able to find one.</p>

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<p>No, lurking, there isn’t a particular forum solely for Canadian schools. If you have any questions about U of T, I’d be happy to try to answer them. I have 3 Ds who have attended/are attending. We also know lots of kids at many other Canadian schools. Would be happy to help in any way I can.</p>

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<p>I’d say there’s actually quite a difference in teaching style and philosophy between US and Canada. I’m about to be a sophomore at Cornell, and I took summer courses at University of Toronto.</p>

<p>Maybe it’s like this at notorious weed out schools, but at University of Toronto, they want you to fail. Classes are held on an absolute grading system, and are rarely curved. Course averages are usually in the C range, sometimes even dropping down to D. If a professor gives out grades that are too high, they are reprimanded by the university, and told to make the course harder in the future. Grading is based mostly on midterms and finals. It just feels like everything is about the grades and fighting against the professor. Even though the grade I get doesn’t transfer back on my transcript, I still felt more pressured than I did back at Cornell regarding grades. (Note, my experience at University of Toronto Scarborough was much more pleasant than at the main campus. However, it doesn’t have quite the same reputation.)</p>

<p>On the other hand, Cornell feels much more hospitable. While people make up stuff like it’s “grade deflated,” that’s clearly not true compared to other schools. Course averages are in the B’s, sometimes even A’s. While the focus is still on the exams, a much larger part of the grade is given to assignments, which helps you feel like you’re actually achieving something through the semester. There’s no such thing as a test that literally kills the whole class, since in these cases it is always curved.</p>

<p>Overall, I’d say that Cornell is a much more fostering educational environment than UofT. However, this may be atypical of other Canadian and US schools. Remember though, it’s still a hell of a lot cheaper to go to UT.</p>

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<p>Your son sounds a lot like mine, he will do well wherever he chooses to go to college. You sound like me- trying to optimize things for him. Now you seem to have assurances that your Canadian choices are good. The next step is to find out how much interest your son really has in a US education. If not much you are home free and can focus on his best fit Canadian choices. If he is interested in a US education then he should be pursuing information gathering, otherwise you will be wasting your time as he won’t bother to use your information. </p>

<p>Despite so many similarities Canada is a different country with its own culture and if your son intends to live there he would have advantages staying within the educational system. An American college would be a good entry point into American culture if he intends to work here after college. Remember that many students from all over the world go to US colleges for grad school so a Canadian undergrad education would be fine for that purpose (I still remember the Alberta accent of one of my Chemistry TA’s at a top 10 chemistry grad school school).</p>